JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Good evening and welcome# to Washington Week.

There's too much going on,## of course, and it's our job tonight to try to# make sense of some of it and to try to analyze## the broad themes of this administration# so far.

One issue of paramount concern,## conflict between the judicial branch and# the executive branch.

President Trump quite## obviously believes that the executive branch# is first among equals, but most judges don't.

We'll discuss this tonight and more with Peter# Baker, the chief White House correspondent at The## New York Times, Laura Barron-Lopez is the White# House correspondent for PBS NewsHour, Eugene## Daniels is a senior Washington correspondent,# and next month will become a co-host of## MSNBC's the Weekend, and Mark Leibovich is my# colleague and a staff writer at The Atlantic,## who will not be co-hosting the weekend.# Welcome everyone.

Thank you for being here.

One week, it's going to be# David Rubenstein in the chair,## in the David Rubenstein studio.

And# you guys, your minds are going to## be blown.

I just realized that at# the open.

Yes, he has a great show.

Let's start by talking about Lucy# Murkowski, senator from Alaska,## just for a moment, and listen to a little# bit more of what she said earlier this week.

LISA MURKOWSKI: We are all afraid, okay?

I am## oftentimes very anxious myself about using# my voice because retaliation is real.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Laura, do# other senators feel this way?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, White House# Correspondent, PBS NewsHour: Yes, they## do.

And other senators h..

Senator Thom Tillis has talked about# the many death threats that he's get,## but she is voicing something that many will# say more in private than they do in public.

I mean, that being said, this shouldn't really be# a surprise to her or to others that Republicans## are in this situation because the administration,# even before Trump, took office, have repeatedly## emboldened extremists and used hate sSpeech# to talk about their political enemies.

And so## this is something that any Republican, you know,# you think of the Liz Cheneys, Adam Kinzingers,## others of the world, that they've had to# deal with for years because they spoke out.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Lisa Murkowski is# one of the few Republicans left in on## the Hill who voted to who voted convict.

What -- LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: She has# immense power with that as well.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Yes.

Is she# the closest thing now in the## Senate to a Mitt Romney now that Romney's gone.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: I think she# is, I think she's one of the few## left out of Republicans in the Senate who is# willing to vote against the administration,## who is willing to voice opposition to things# that they're doing.

She has also expressed## frustration about the actions of Elon Musk and# DOGE, and was very vocal about that early on.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Yes.

Mark, let me ask# you, because something struck me as odd## about that statement.

Not that it's# a reflection -- not that it's not a## reflection of a certain reality, but,# you know, it's odd because she's like## supposed to be a leader and being a leader# means not expressing that you're scared to## lead.

Is there -- what's going on here?

Is# that just a moment of like honest honesty?

MARK LEIBOVICH, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: I# think so.

I mean, it is so pervasive what she## is talking about.

I mean, it was like almost# blurting out that like the sky is blue in## some ways.

I mean, I think just to be clear too,# she's not talking about intimidation, political## intimidation, like Elon Musk throwing a bunch of# money at an opponent or someone being primary.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #So, she's# actually talking about physical -- MARK LEIBOVICH: She's talking about physical# fear, and, you know, the death thre.. doxxing, swatting, all the stuff that goes# on, or at least threats thereof that goes on.

And just to be clear, I mean, that is a -- you# know, that goes on a lot these days.

I mean,## threats certainly go on a lot, especially since# January 6th.

It's been a real hallmark of this## era.

And just to point out, you know, what# should be clear, you know, politics, you know,## you're supposed to -- governing is supposed to# take place by politics, by persuasion, by debate.## Authoritarianism is government by intimidation,# by threat, by violence in some cases.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Right.

Peter, let# me frame this out a little bit more.## And I'm not trying to be uncharitable to# Senator Murkowski.

I understand the nature## of the threats that we all live with# these days.

But she's almost talking## about the Josh Shapiro level issue we saw# earlier this week of physical intimidation.

The question for you, maybe it's a naive one,## is aren't senators among the most protected# Americans, the most protected critics of -- PETER BAKER, Chief White House Correspondent,# The New York Times: I mean, they're really## not.

I mean, the Capitol Police does.. certainly when they're out of# town.

Only the leadership, yes,## and then occasional instances where particular# members have particular reasons for threats,## they might provide protection.

Otherwise,# no, they provide their own protection,## which they have to pay for out of their campaign# funds or whatever else.

But that's not -- LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Which Mitt Romney had to do.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Right.

PETER BAKER: He .. a lot of people have had those kind of# threats that forced them to live their## lives in a very different way than there# used to be.

And senators don't want to,## by the way, live with security# trailing around.

They want to## be open and accessible to their people.# It goes against the nature of what our## representative government is supposed to# be like.

But this is the reality today.

EUGENE DANIELS, Senior Washington# Correspondent, MSNBC: But, Jeff,## I think there is -- what.. if they're this scared and they're# willing to tell that to people,## how should the normal American feel, right?# How should.

It's the normal American that is## watching what's happening in the country# and doesn't like it and feels scared for## different reasons?

They're looking to those# hundred senators and those members of the## rest of the members of Congress to say, you're# the leaders of our country, help us, right?

Those Republicans that are in Alaska# that are talking to Lisa Murkowski who## are fearful for whatever reason, they're# looking to her for some kind of like for## her to be sturdy and sure of things.

And so# that, sure, be honest with folks and talk## about how scared, it's clear, things are,# but there's another element to this.

So,## where it doesn't ensure that the people around# you feel more confident in you as a leader.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #Right.

I mean,# does this lead to other senators1,## Republican senators saying, you know what,# Lisa, you're right, we should ban together?

EUGENE DANIELS: No, JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #We should ban together# like the law firms have banded toge.. EUGENE DANIELS: Yes.

No, I think like you're not# -- one, you're not going to see that because,## as we were just saying, there's less and less# members of Congress in general who are not## a part of the Trump train, who aren't# excited about the things that are happening,## who aren't going to go out front# and do what Lisa Murkowski's doing,## she's part of a dying breed of members of Congress# and Republicans willing to do the thing.

So, no,## you're not going to see a bunch of people get# up and stand outside and do the -- talk about## how they don't like what Trump is doing, how# they don't like what Elon Musk is doing because## they're scared and whether they're scared of# the physical violence or the political violence.

PETER BAKER: On the physical violence part,# and that has also been seen on both sides too,## of course.

President Trump was the target of# two different assassination attempts last year.## Just this last week, I think the would-be# assassin of Brett Kavanaugh was sentenced,## I think, in court, Steve Scalise# number of years ago.

It does seem## at times that Trump and his people seem to# be more willing to use words like traitor## and treasonous that might excite people to# take action.

And I think that's the worry,## what level of responsibility you have as a# president, as a leader of this country to## try to tamp down the kind of passions# that arise rather than stoke them.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #You know, something I've# been curious about on the Josh Shapiro attack,## which is a serious attack, a serious arson attack,## obviously we're understanding now that it# was an anti-Semitic attack in its nature,## the kind of a muted response generally to it.# And I'm wondering if you think that if it had## been a right winger and not some anti-Israel guy# or something, it would've been a louder outcry.

PETER BAKER: That's a good question.

J.D.

Vance# did express his concern for Governor Shapiro,## said that was an awful thing that had happened,# but president talked about it much?

And I think## that, you know, what you would've seen under# a lot of different presidents is a reckoning,## a way of like let's talk about why our# society is like this today and what we## can do about it to come together# even as we argue, as we should,## about big and serious issues.

That's just# not Trump's nature as a leader.

And like -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That he would set the tone.

PETER BAKER: He set the tone.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: I mean, .. he ran on that, saying that he was# trying to tone down the rhetoric,## but I think what you're seeing from President# Trump is whether it's in the type of language## he uses by calling people a traitor or# treasonous, he puts a target on multiple## people's backs when he specifically names them,# when he repeatedly attacks people by name,## be it judges, be it lawyers, be it any# political enemy that he perceives to be, JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #I don't# know anything about that.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes, you wouldn't know that.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: #I'm not# familiar with this p.. LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: You never# experienced that in your life.

MARK LEIBOVICH: No.

I mean, I remember well Mitt# -- I'm sorry, .. he once said, you know, your, the first# job of a president is not to say something## that's going to inflame the random nut, and# Trump doesn't have that.

And I think he went## farther to say something to the degree# that he actually will sort of possibly,## you know, try to communicate in some way# to incite, you know, things that will make## people who he disagrees with scared.

And# that is -- you know, that is out there.

PETER BAKER: And Romney has told# people that he was told by other## Republican senators that they voted against# conviction in the second impeachment trial## specifically because they were afraid# of their families, for their families.

MARK LEIBOVICH: Absolutely.

Well, that# has a real impact beyond just, you know,## a nervousness on a part of elected official# that seems to be impacting their votes.

EUGENE DANIELS: And I think part of the muted# response from on the Shapiro of the situation## that happened this week is also that we're# unfortunately getting used to a lot of this,## right?

It was a part of the news for a# little bit, but, you know, five years ago,## ten years ago, this would've been the# only thing we talked about as reporters## or be the only thing -- it would be# the only thing that other members## of that members of Congress were talking# about that the president's talking about.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: And normalizing the populist## to political violence is a# trait of authoritarianism.