>> NOW TO A PARTY AT A PIVOTAL CROSSROADS.

A PROGRESSIVE STUNNED THE DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT AFTER SECURING A HISTORIC VICTORY IN NEW YORK CITY'S MAYORAL PRIMARIES.

IN A NEW PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC JOURNALIST DAVID GRAHAM ARGUES THAT PARTY LEADERS ARE FAILING TO KEEP PACE WITH THE MOMENT AS HE EXPLAINS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER, MAYBE THEY ATTENDED ONE OF THOSE BIG NO KINGS MARCHES, PROTESTS THAT HAPPENED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ON JUNE 14.

IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT IT OR WATCHING THE COVERAGE YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT WHERE WERE THE DEMOCRATS.

IT TURNS OUT A LOT OF THEM WERE AT A VERY FANCY WEDDING IN THE HAMPTONS THAT LED TO A PIECE THAT YOU WROTE FOR THE ATLANTIC SAYING IT IS A TOUGH TITLE.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SLIDES INTO IRRELEVANCE.

THAT IS KIND OF TOUGH.

WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT.

>> IT'S A FEW THINGS.

YOU HAVE THESE HUGE PROTESTS.

SOME OF THE LARGEST IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

PEOPLE SHOWING OPPOSITION TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

ALTHOUGH THERE WERE ELECTED DEMOCRATS INVOLVED THIS WAS ORGANIZED BY OUTSIDE GROUPS, GRASSROOTS GROUPS.

THE DEMOCRATIC HARDY WAS ON THE SIDELINES.

WHILE THIS WAS GOING ON THEY WERE ATTENDING THE WEDDING OF ALEX SOROS WHOSE FATHER IS A MAJOR DONOR OR THE COMMITTEE HAS LONGTIME MEMBERS WERE RESIGNING.

>> IS THE ISSUE THAT THEY WENT TO THIS WEDDING?

OR IS THE ISSUE THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE A BIG ROLE IN THESE MASSIVE ANTI-TRUMP PROTESTS.

>> IT'S AN UNFORTUNATE CONFLUENCE.

MAYBE SYMBOLISM MORE THAN ANYTHING.

I DON'T THINK DEMOCRATIC INVOLVEMENT WOULD HAVE HELPED.

WHAT WE SEE IS ROBUST OPPOSITION.

IT'S JUST NOT COMING FROM DEMOCRATS.

WE HAVE LEADERS IN CONGRESS WHO SEEM A LITTLE UNSURE ON THE MESSAGE.

HAKEEM JEFFRIES SAYING HE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY CAN DO.

WE DON'T SEE A NATIONAL PARTY LEADER.

JOE BIDEN IS OFF THE SCENE.

KAMALA HARRIS IS CONSIDERING A RUN IN CALIFORNIA.

BARACK OBAMA IS NOT A VERY VISIBLE PRESENCE.

THE PARTY DOES NOT HAVE A CLEAR LEADER OR A CLEAR AGENDA.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

IS IT UNUSUAL FOR THE PARTY OUT OF POWER TO HAVE A VISIBLE AGENDA OR VISIBLE LEADER?

OR IS THIS JUST NORMAL IF I CAN USE THAT WORD?

>> I THINK SOME OF THESE ARE THE NORMAL RESULT OF LOSING AN ELECTION.

A PARTY THAT LOST WILL WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED, IT WILL WANT TO GO OVER THOSE THINGS AGAIN.

AS THEY ARE DOING THAT THEY ARE STILL RELITIGATING THE 2024 ELECTION AND DEALING WITH INTERNAL TURMOIL.

YOU MAY EXPECT THE COMMITTEE TO STEP UP AND FILL THE VOID.

INSTEAD YOU SEE THEM ARGUING OVER WHETHER DAVID HOGG, A GUN ACTIVIST, SHOULD LEAD AND WHAT THE ROLE OF THE CHAIR SHOULD BE.

ALTHOUGH YOU CAN HAVE A LOT OF OPPOSITION, YOU CAN SEE A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT IT IS HARD TO TURN INTO NATIONAL SUCCESS IF THE APPARATUS DOES NOT WORK WELL.

THEY ARE RAISING MONEY, PREPARING A 50 STATE STRATEGY, GETTING BACK ON TRACK IS WHAT THEY SAY.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN A LOT OF THE CONCRETE SIGNS.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A LOT OF INFIGHTING.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER DATA POINTS THAT SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS NOT FLOUNDERING BUT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

WHAT SUGGESTS THAT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT OTHER THAN THEY DON'T HOLD EITHER PARTY OF CONGRESS OR THE WHITE HOUSE WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE A HARDER TIME GETTING THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC.

>> YOU SEE THE EXAMPLE OF THE SO-CALLED ONE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL.

DEMOCRATS HAD A BIT TO SLOW THINGS DOWN IN THE HOUSE AND WERE UNSUCCESSFUL.

IN THE SENATE THEY ARE ENTIRELY ON THE SIDELINES.

YOU ALSO THE --DON'T SEE A CLEAR MESSAGE FROM DEMOCRATS OTHER THAN IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD.

YOU SEE THE DEMOCRATS SUCCEEDING ON THE STATE LEVEL BUT YOU DON'T SEE A CLEAR MESSAGE ON THIS.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS ON IRAN.

IT'S HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE MESSAGES .

SOME SAY THERE SHOULD BE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORIZATION.

SOME ARE OPPOSED BUT THERE'S NO PARTY MESSAGE.

EVEN AS YOU SEE A ROBUST DEBATE INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY .

>> A COUPLE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE SAID IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THE PRESIDENT AS HE DOES IMMEDIATELY CALLED HIM NAMES AND THREATENED TO RUN A PRIMARY OPPONENT AGAINST HIM.

DO YOU CALL THAT A ROBUST DEBATE OR IS THAT A ROBUST DEBATE IN THE BASE?

>> IT'S HARD TO DRAW LINES IN THE BASE AND THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT.

YOU HAVE THESE FACTIONS BASICALLY A FOX NEWS FACTION AND X FOX NEWS FACTION DEBATING THESE THINGS.

YOU SEE THE INFLUENCE ON MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

THAT CONSTITUTES A DEBATE INSIDE THE PARTY.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT YOUR PIECE.

ONE OF THE DATA POINTS IS THAT THE PARTY WAS IN SO MUCH TURMOIL OVER DAVID HOGG.

SAY LITTLE MORE ABOUT WHO HE IS AND WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT?

>> DAVID HOGG IS AN ACTIVIST.

HE WAS A STUDENT AT MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL WHEN THE SHOOTING OCCURRED AND HAS BECOME A MAJOR ACTIVIST.

HE RAN FOR VICE CHAIR OF THE PARTY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR AND WON AND ANNOUNCED HE WOULD BE RUNNING PRIMARY CHALLENGES TO DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENTS WHICH IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR A LEADING PARTY OFFICER TO DO.

KEN MARTIN, THE CHAIR HAS TRIED TO DISSUADE HIM .

ULTIMATELY WHAT HAPPENED IS HOGG WAS REMOVED FROM HIS POST OVER A CHALLENGE OVER WHETHER HE HAD BEEN ELECTED ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE PARTY DIRECTLY AND HE DECLINED TO RUN AGAIN.

HE IS NOW GONE BUT IN THE MEANTIME HE'S TAKEN A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY AND TO THE LEAKED REPORTING KEN MARTIN SAID HE FELT LIKE DAVID HOGG'S DISTRACTIONS HAVE MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO LEAD THE PARTY AND MADE HIM QUESTION WHETHER HE WANTED TO STAY AS THE CHAIR.

>> IT'S A BIG DEAL BECAUSE IT SHOWED THEY WERE SO IN TURMOIL OVER DAVID HOGG?

WHAT OTHER CONCLUSIONS DID YOU DRAW FROM THAT WHOLE EPISODE?

>> I THINK THERE'S TWO THINGS.

IT'S A BAD SIGN IF A PARTY TRYING TO TAKE ON A FIGURE AS POWERFUL AS TRUMP IS HAVING A HARD TIME NEGOTIATING WHAT TO DO WITH THE 25-YEAR-OLD ACTIVIST WITH A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY BEHIND HIM.

IT DOESN'T SUGGEST A PARTY THAT CAN MOVE DECISIVELY AND PLAN.

ALSO THE FALLOUT HAS BEEN A LITTLE CONCERNING.

WE SAW RESIGNATIONS FROM THE COMMITTEE OF THE HEAD OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS, THE LEADER OF ANOTHER POWERFUL UNION.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IMPORTANT IN THE PARTY FOR A LONG TIME.

THEY ARE LEAVING AND CRITICIZING KEN MARTIN.

THIS IS A TIME WHEN THE DEMOCRATIC EDDIE HAS BEEN NOT ONLY LOSING SUPPORT AMONG UNION VOTERS BUT ALSO UNION LEADERS.

THE TEAMSTERS TO CLIENT TO THE --DECLINE TO ENDORSE THEM IN THE LAST ELECTION WHICH WAS A MAJOR VICTORY FOR TRUMP.

IT'S A PROBLEM ELECTORALLY BUT ALSO FOR THE COFFERS OF THE CAMPAIGN AND THE BOOTS ON THE GROUND FOR RUNNING THE CAMPAIGN INTO 2028.

>> WHAT IS YOUR BOTTOM LINE ANALYSIS OF WHAT AILS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

JOHN FETTERMAN, THE SENATOR FROM PENNSYLVANIA ARGUES THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE BECOME TOO PRECIOUS.

THEY ARE FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE OVER WHETHER YOU DRINK A SINGLE- USE PLASTIC WATER BOTTLE AT A PUBLIC EVENT AND FIGHT ABOUT RULES THINGS AND THEY ARE KIND OF LOSING THE PLOT.

OTHER PEOPLE FEEL THAT, THESE RULES MATTER .

TRYING TO FIND OUT THESE ISSUES IS A SIMPLE OF WHAT THE PARTY STANDS FOR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> IN SOME WAYS WE ARE JUST SEEING AN IDENTITY CRISIS.

AFTER THE 2016 ELECTION DEMOCRATS COULD SAY THAT WAS A FLUKE AND AFTER 2020 THEY COULD SAY THINGS ARE BACK THE WAY THEY WERE.

THE 2024 ELECTION MADE IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ANYMORE.

THEY DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY MIGHT LOOK LIKE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

ON SOME LEVEL FETTERMAN IS RIGHT.

IT'S NOT JUST THE ISSUES THEMSELVES BUT THE WAY THEY ARE EXPRESSED.

YOU DON'T SEE LEADERS THAT SEEM ABLE OR READY TO TAKE A BOLD STANCE .

IT IS VERY HARD WHEN THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITE PARTY IS SOMEBODY WHO MORE THAN ANYTHING IS GOOD AT GRABBING ATTENTION.

IT'S HARD TO BE RELEVANT WHEN YOU CAN'T GET ATTENTION AND THAT'S WHAT DEMOCRATS SEEM TO BE.

>> THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS COULD IT ALSO BE TRUE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS ALSO IRRELEVANT?

THE MAIN CHARACTER HERE IS DONALD TRUMP.

THE PARTY FOLLOWS HIS LEAD.

THE REAL ISSUE IS FIGURING OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH HIM.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS IN AN IDENTITY CRISIS BEFORE HE ENTERED THE SCENE.

HE FILLS THE VACUUM FOR NOW BUT WILL NOT BE THERE ALWAYS.

I DON'T THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS A SENSE OF WHAT IT WILL BE POST TRUMP.

THEY HAVE BEEN COASTING ON HIS POPULARITY.

WE HAVE SEEN DECADES IN WHICH THE PARTY COMMITTEES HAVE BECOME LESS AND LESS POWERFUL.

SO FOR NOW WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE CULMINATION OF THE LONG- RUNNING PROCESS.

>> IS THIS A PROBLEM?

THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT MENTION POLITICAL PARTIES.

THEY ARE AN ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE THAT AROSE , THERE USED TO BE MORE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES THAN NOW.

WHAT HAS REPLACE THEM?

WHAT IT BE MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS?

WHAT HAS REPLACED THEM?

>> PART OF IT IS THE MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS BUT ALSO CANDIDATES WHO HAVE MORE POWER.

PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP WHO ARE DRIVEN BY PERSONALITY BUT ALSO EXTREME CANDIDATES.

IT TENDS TO DRIVE PEOPLE TOWARD THE MOST ELECT DOUBLE CANDIDATES WHICH TENDS TO BE MORE MODERATE.

IN AN ECOSYSTEM WITH IDEOLOGICAL MEDIA AND NO STRONG PARTY ORGANIZATION IT IS EASY FOR A FIGURE LIKE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE TO GET A LOT OF MONEY AND GRAB A LOT OF POWER.

WE CAN SEE THAT IN THE POLARIZATION OF BOTH PARTIES.

A GOOD PARTY APPARATUS CAN HELP TO MAINTAIN THAT.

IN THE ABSENCE WE HAVE MORE POLARIZATION, MORE PARTISANSHIP, MORE DRIVEN TO THE OTHER PARTY BUT DRIVEN BY ANY KIND OF ORGANIZATION AROUND A CLEAR IDENTITY.

>> SO WHAT REACTION TO DO GET YOUR PIECE ?

IT CAN'T HAVE BEEN I'M SO GLAD SOMEBODY WROTE THAT.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HEARD ESPECIALLY FROM SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE PIECE?

>> WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, LOOK WE ARE UNDERSTANDING WE ARE TRYING TO REORGANIZE.

WE THINK THE DAVID HOGG THING HAS BEEN A DISTRACTION.

WE HAVE GOOD FUNDRAISING AND WE ARE WORKING FOR THE NEXT ELECTION.

ALSO PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING THEY FEEL THEY ARE ORGANIZED, DOING THINGS ON THE GROUND AND MAKING THINGS HAPPEN AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

WHAT I TOLD THEM IS THAT IS ALL IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT FOR MIDTERM ELECTIONS, BUT YOU CAN'T WIN A NATIONAL ELECTION WITHOUT A NATIONAL PARTY.

>> SO WHO ARE THEY LOOKING TO?

THEY HAVE A HANDFUL OF GOVERNORS THAT ARE IMPRESSING PEOPLE LIKE THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN, THE GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND, AND I GUESS GAVIN NEWSOM THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA THAT CANNOT RUN AGAIN.

IS THAT ABOUT IT?

>> I THINK THAT THERE IS EXCITEMENT ABOUT PETE BUTTIGIEG AND THE SAME HESITATION THAT HE'S TOO YOUNG OR NOT A CLEAR POLITICAL BASE .

THESE QUESTIONS CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED BY PRIMARY .

THERE ARE CLEARLY A LOT OF CANDIDATES THAT ARE NOT READY TO PUT THEIR NAME AND BUTTER MAKING THE STEPS YOU WOULD TAKE IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

>> I WAS WONDERING IF THE PIECE PROVOKED PEOPLE TO THINK AGAIN A RELITIGATE THE WHOLE BIDEN- HARRIS DYNAMIC.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO FAULT JOE BIDEN VERY MUCH FOR NOT STEPPING OFF THE SCENE OF THE --SOONER AND NOT GIVING HARRIS A CHANCE TO GET HERSELF IN BETTER POSITION.

OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AND SAY, WHAT THEY NEEDED WAS A PRIMARY SO PEOPLE COULD FIGHT IT OUT AND SHARPEN THEIR MESSAGES AND GALVANIZE THE PUBLIC.

>> I HAVE HEARD A LOT OF THAT.

IT'S NEVER GONE AWAY.

I THINK IT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THERE IS AN ACCOUNTABILITY ISSUE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE IN DEMOCRATIC POLITICS VOUCHED FOR JOE BIDEN AND QUICKLY CHANGE THEIR MIND AFTER THE FIRST DEBATE WHEN IT BECAME CLEAR HE COULD NO LONGER DO THE JOB.

IT'S A BIT OF AN IRRELEVANT QUESTION.

I CAN'T IMAGINE A SITUATION WHERE DEMOCRATS ARE RUNNING AN 80 SOMETHING-YEAR-OLD CANDIDATE IN THE SAME WAY.

THE ACCOUNTABILITY IS IMPORTANT.

IT IS A ONE-OFF ELECTION.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT THEY WILL DO IN 2026 OR 2028.

>> YOU SAID IT'S EASIER TO DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM BUT TO SOLVE IT BUT BASED ON YOUR REPORTING WHAT ARE SOME OF THE KEY STEPS YOU THINK THEY NEED TO TAKE?

>> I THINK THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO TAKE RISKS.

THEY SEEM VERY CAUTIOUS.

THERE'S A REAL FOCUS ON THE MODERATE VERSUS LEFT QUESTION.

I'M NOT CERTAIN THAT'S THE MOST RELEVANT WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.

IT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO TAKE A POSITION THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING .

THEY CAN GRAB ATTENTION.

WE SAW THIS WITH THE CORY BOOKER FILIBUSTER.

THAT WAS NOT A PARTICULARLY MODERATE OR LEFT A STATEMENT THAT IT GRABBED A LOT OF ATTENTION.

>> BEFORE YOU GO, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW THE MIDDLE EAST IS VERY MUCH IN PLAY.

THERE'S A LOT OF SKEPTICISM FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC ABOUT FURTHER AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT ESPECIALLY FROM THE ROBUST MILITARY STANDPOINT.

DOES THIS OFFER AN OPPORTUNITY FOR DEMOCRATS TO ARTICULATE BUT A LOT OF DEMOCRATS THINK OR DOES IT FURTHER MAKE THEM IRRELEVANT BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY FOREIGN-POLICY IS STILL THE PRESIDENT'S CALL.

>> IT IS A CHANCE LIKE ANY NUMBER OF THESE MOMENTS FOR THEM TO TAKE A POSITION.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS UNPOPULAR ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

DEMOCRATS ARE CONCERNED.

SOME HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THE PARTY IS SEEN AS THE PARTY OF WAR.

IT'S A CHANCE TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES, CRITICIZE TRUMP FOR OVERREACH AND ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS A REAL ALTERNATIVE.

I DO NOT SEE THE PARTY AS A WHOLE DOING THAT EVEN THOUGH INDIVIDUAL VOICES ARE SPEAKING OUT.

>> DO DEMOCRATS HAVE A COHERENT MESSAGE HERE?

IS IT AN OPPORTUNITY OR IS IT ANOTHER SIDELINE YET AGAIN BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT CONTROLS THE APPARATUS?

>> I THINK IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

DEMOCRATS ARE STILL SO SHELLSHOCKED BY THE LAST ELECTION.

THEY BELIEVE THEY LOST PARTLY ON IMMIGRATION AND THAT'S TRUE.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ON IMMIGRATION OR THEY HAVE TO EMBRACE THE PRESIDENT'S POSITION ON IMMIGRATION.

POLLING SHOWS THAT THERE IS OVERREACH.

PEOPLE ARE IN FAVOR THAT CLOSING THE BORDERS BUT NOT THE ENFORCEMENT WE'VE SEEN.

THEY ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF SENDING THE NATIONAL GUARD AND THE MARINES TO LOS ANGELES.

AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE CASE FOR EXAMPLE OF KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA, IF THERE ARE VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION AND COURT ORDERS THAT'S A MATTER OF WHAT IS RIGHT.

DEMOCRATS SHOULD STAND UP AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

THERE'S A DOUBLE OPPORTUNITY THERE BUT YOU CAN SEE THEM VERY NERVOUS ABOUT TAKING ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BE SEEN AS GETTING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> ANY SLEEP OR OPPORTUNITIES WE HAVE NOT MENTIONED?

ANYTHING WE HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT THAT OFFERS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR DEMOCRATS THAT WE CAN KEEP AN EYE ON.

>> THEY HAVE A HARD TIME DRIVING THE NEW CYCLE SO IT'S HARD TO SEE WHERE THINGS ARE GOING.

ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS, AS WE'VE SEEN FROM THE NO KINGS PROTEST THERE IS A ROBUST OPPOSITION.

EACH TIME HE DOES SOMETHING UNPOPULAR THERE IS A CHANCE FOR DEMOCRATS TO STRIKE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

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