>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN IRAN AND ISRAEL HOLDS SO COULD A CEASE- FIRE IN GAZA BE ON THE HORIZON AND WHAT MIGHT THAT MEAN FOR THE WEST BANK?

I SPEAK TO MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PALESTINIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT.

> >> AS THE DUST SETTLES, HOW WELL IRAN RESPOND?

EXPERT KARIM SADJADPOUR LOOKS AT THE FALLOUT.

> >> THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SLIDES INTO IRRELEVANCE SAYS DAVID GRAHAM LAYING OUT HIS TAKE WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM , LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST , MARK J. BLECHNER, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN -- COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

COULD U. S. STRIKES IN IRAN PAVE THE WAY FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA?

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS SET TO HAVE A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE LATEST U. S. FRAMEWORK WHICH CALLS FOR THE RELEASE OF 10 OF THE REMAINING ISRAELI HOSTAGES AND THE PARTIES OF 18 MORE AS PART OF A 60 DAY CEASE-FIRE.

HAMAS OFFICIALS HAVE NOT REJECTED THE PROPOSAL BUT SAY THEY REQUIRE STRONGER GUARANTEES AROUND WHAT THE END OF THE WAR LOOKS LIKE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HIS REPRESENTATIVES ARE , QUOTE, VERY CLOSE TO STRIKING A DEAL.

MEANWHILE THE FIGHTING AND SUFFERING IN GAZA CONTINUES.

ALMOST 900 PEOPLE DIED THERE EVEN AS ISRAEL WAS BOMBING IRAN.

OVER THE LAST MONTH MORE THAN 500 HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAELI MILITARY WHILE SEEKING FOOD AID.

SEVEN SOLDIERS WERE KILLED IN A BOMBING THIS WEEK ACCORDING TO THE IDF.

VIOLENCE IS ALSO INTENSIFYING IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK WHERE SEVERAL PALESTINIANS WERE KILLED FOLLOWING A SERIES OF ATTACKS BY ISRAELI SETTLERS.

COULD PROGRESS HELP DIAL DOWN TENSIONS IN THE WEST BANK AS WELL?

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI IS A LONGTIME PALESTINIAN POLITICIAN, FORMER PEACE NEGOTIATOR, AND MEMBER OF THE PALESTINIAN PARLIAMENT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S NOT OFTEN WE GET TO TALK FACE-TO-FACE, BUT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT JUNCTURE AND TURNING POINT.

DO YOU AGREE?

DO YOU AGREE WITH WHAT NETANYAHU HAS SAID AND TRUMP APPEARS TO BE SAYING, THAT THIS ACTION IN IRAN COULD PAVE THE WAY FOR A RESOLUTION THAT LEADS TO CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA?

>> IT CAN IF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT HAS THE WILL TO DO SO.

HE HAS THE ABILITY TO USE THE LEVERAGE HE HAS OVER NETANYAHU , IT IS VERY CLEAR.

ALSO MOST IMPORTANTLY THE LAST FIGHT WITH IRAN HAS SHOWN TWO THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, THAT ISRAEL WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES IS INCAPABLE OF ATTACKING ANYBODY.

>> THAT IS NOT TRUE BECAUSE ISRAEL IS THE ONE WHO ESSENTIALLY WITH ITS FORCES OBLITERATED IRAN'S AIR DEFENSES AND GOT CONTROL OF THE SKIES.

>> THEY NEEDED THE UNITED STATES TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

>> TO DO THE BIG -- >> IN OTHER WORDS ISRAEL IS VERY DEPENDENT ON THE UNITED STATES.

THAT IS IMPORTANT.

THIS WHOLE CONFLICT WITH IRAN, BEFORE THAT IRAQ, EGYPT, SYRIA, IT IS ONE CORE ISSUE OF PALESTINE.

THE FACT THAT ISRAEL CONTINUES TO OCCUPY PALESTINIAN LAND.

THE ONLY WAY TO REAL PEACE AND LASTING PEACE AND SECURITY FOR EVERYBODY IS TO SOLVE THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE AND ALLOW PALESTINIANS TO BE FREE AND INDEPENDENT.

IF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT AS THE WILL HE CAN IMMEDIATELY IMPOSE PRESSURE ON NETANYAHU TO STOP THE HORRIBLE WAR THAT HAS TAKEN SO MANY LIVES.

>> DO YOU HAVE ANY SOURCES AND PEOPLE YOU ARE CONNECTED WITH ON THIS VERY PERSONAL AND POLITICAL ISSUE FOR YOURSELF IN THE REGION WHO ARE GIVING YOU ANY HOPE THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME BREAKTHROUGH.

IF PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS CLOSE TO A DEAL AND HAMAS SAYS THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES, DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE?

>> THE DEAL IS QUITE POSSIBLE.

NOT ONLY ABOUT RELEASING THE PRISONERS OR CAPTIVES BUT THE RELEASE OF ALL CAPTIVES IN EXCHANGE FOR STOPPING THE WAR.

I THINK HAMAS HAS BEEN READY FOR THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

THE QUESTION IS, CAN THE UNITED STATES FORCE NETANYAHU TO GIVE UP HIS ORIGINAL PLAN WHICH IS TO KEEP PUSHING PALESTINIANS OUT OF EVERYPLACE IN GAZA INTO WHAT COULD BECOME A CONCENTRATION CAMP NEAR RUSSIA .

TO GIVE UP HIS PLAN OF TOTAL ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

THAT IS THE GAME.

WE HAVE HEARD TODAY AND MOST RECENTLY NEW INFORMATION OR NEWS THAT TRUMP IS PROMISING NETANYAHU THAT IF HE STOPS THE WAR IN GAZA THAT TRUMP WILL ELIMINATE ALL OF THE CORRUPTION CASES AGAINST NETANYAHU.

>> OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT IN HIS PURVIEW TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

>> RIGHT.

IT COULD BE SOMETHING HE COULD CONVINCE THE ISRAELI PRESIDENT.

>> LET ME PLAY A SOUNDBITE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THE ISSUE OF POTENTIALLY A CEASE-FIRE.

>> I THINK GREAT PROGRESS IS BEING MADE ON GAZA.

BECAUSE OF THIS ATTACK THAT WE MADE, I THINK WE WILL HAVE SOME VERY GOOD NEWS.

I THINK IT HELPED A LITTLE BIT.

IT SHOWED A LOT OF POWER.

I THINK IT HELPED.

SEPARATELY EVEN BEFORE THIS WE WERE VERY CLOSE TO MAKING A DEAL IN GAZA.

>> WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE DYNAMIC POTENTIALLY HAVING CHANGED WITH THE STRIKES AND IRAN AND THE WINDOW FOR ENGAGEMENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

THE BIG ALL-TIME QUESTION FOR PALESTINIANS IS, DOES ISRAEL LEAVE THE GAZA STRIP?

DOES THE IDF GET OUT?

WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THOUGHT IT WAS NEGOTIATING.

DOES AN INTERNATIONAL FORCE BUT MAYBE MOSTLY ARAB FORCE COME IN, GUARANTEED BY THE UNITED STATES?

AND DOES HAMAS LAY DOWN ITS WEAPONS AND AGREE THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO BE ANY MEMBER OF AN OFFICIAL FUTURE FOR GAZA?

>> THAT ISSUE WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

THE ISSUE THAT HAMAS WOULD LEAVE THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY TOLD US THAT MANY TIMES IN OUR MEETINGS WITH THEM.

WHEN THEY HAD THE MEETING OF ALL PALESTINIAN FORCES IN MOSCOW AND THEN BEIJING, THE BEIJING DECLARATION WHICH I PERSONALLY DRAFTED SPEAKS ABOUT THE FORMATION OF A TECHNOCRATIC GOVERNMENT THAT IS INDEPENDENT FROM PARTIES BUT WHICH WOULD BE ACCEPTED BY ALL PALESTINIANS, A NATIONAL CONSENSUS GOVERNMENT WHICH WOULD BE A TEMPORARY GOVERNMENT TO START THE RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA AND PREPARE THE GROUND FOR FREEDOM WHICH PALESTINIANS DESERVE AND WE DID NOT HAVE FOR 20 YEARS NOW.

I THINK THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE -- >> THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THE LEADER OF THE PALESTINIANS.

>> SURE .

HE HAS TO ACCEPT THAT.

IT IS UP TO HIM NOW TO START IMPLEMENTING THE BEIJING DECLARATION WHICH MEANS WE DON'T NEED ANY OTHER FORCES TO COME IN.

WE ARE FULLY CAPABLE OF ROLLING OURSELVES >> YOU KNOW THAT'S NOT GOING TO FLY, MR. BARGHOUTI.

THERE'S NO WAY THE AMERICANS OR ISRAELIS WILL SAY, GO FOR IT AFTER WHAT HAPPENED.

THERE WILL HAVE TO BE SOME KIND OF INTERNATIONAL ACCEPTABLE FORCE TEMPORARILY OR WHATEVER IT IS TO GUARANTEE THE PIECE.

>> WE WOULD WELCOME ANY INTERNATIONAL FORCE TO SIT ON THE BOARD BUT NOT TO RULE US.

WE HAVE BEEN UNDER ISRAELI OCCUPATION FOR MORE THAN 57 YEARS.

WE'VE BEEN DEPRIVED OF THE RIGHT TO BE FREE AND BE FREE FROM OCCUPATION.

I DON'T THINK WE AS PALESTINIAN PEOPLE NEED ANOTHER OCCUPATION BY ANYBODY.

WHAT WE NEED IS TO HAVE A CHANCE LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE IN THIS WORLD TO RULE OURSELVES BUT ALSO TO HAVE A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN IGNORED FOR A LONG TIME EVEN WHEN SOME COUNTRIES TALK ABOUT REFORM.

THEY NEVER SAY IT SHOULD BE DEMOCRATIC REFORM AND PALESTINIANS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS.

THE SYSTEM WE ARE USING NOW, CHRISTIANE, IS A SYSTEM OF PROPORTION ELECTION.

THAT MEANS THE PERCENTAGE YOU GET WILL GIVE YOU THE SAME NUMBER OF SEATS EQUAL TO THE PROPORTION YOU GOT.

SO NO SINGLE PARTY IN PALESTINE CAN GET ABSOLUTE MAJORITY.

THAT WILL CREATE A PLURALISTIC DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM DIFFERENT FROM ANYTHING BEFORE.

>> I'VE HEARD QUITE A FEW DIFFERENT VOICES FROM HAMAS.

I'VE BEEN ON CERTAIN CALLS WHERE CERTAIN HAMAS OFFICIALS WHO CLAIM TO BE POLITICIANS RATHER THAN MILITANTS , NO TROOPS ANYWHERE NEAR US.

IT HAS TO BE JUST PALESTINIANS.

THEN I FOUND ANOTHER VOICE ALSO FROM THE PAST WHO IS IN GAZA AND HAS BEEN UNDER ALL THE BOMBARDMENTS WE ALL KNOW HAS HAPPENED SINCE OCTOBER 7 AND SAID, THIS WAS WEEKS AGO, HAMAS SHOULD RELEASE ALL THE HOSTAGES, BE DONE WITH IT BECAUSE WE ARE SUFFERING TOO MUCH AND THEY ARE CAUSING US TO SUFFER TOO MUCH.

I'M TALKING ABOUT HAMAS SAYING ABOUT HAMAS.

AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU ARE NOT HAMAS AND DON'T SPEAK FOR THEM, DO YOU THINK THERE IS STILL AN INTERNAL STRUGGLE?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S AN INTERNAL STRUGGLE.

OF COURSE THERE ARE DIFFERENT VOICES AND DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

THAT'S NORMAL IN ANY ORGANIZATION THAT HAS A LITTLE BIT OF DEMOCRACY.

OF COURSE THERE WILL BE DIFFERENT VIEWS.

WHAT WE SEE IS THE BIG QUESTION ABOUT THE NEEDS OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

IF ALL THE ISRAELI CAPTIVES ARE RELEASED WITHOUT DECLARING COMPLETE AND TOTAL CEASE-FIRE WHAT YOU WILL SEE IS THE ISRAELI ARMY WILL INVADE ALL OF THE GAZA STRIP, PUSH EVERYBODY INTO THAT VERY SMALL AREA IN WHAT COULD BECOME A CONCENTRATION CAMP AND THEN NETANYAHU FULFILLING HIS CLAN OF TOTAL ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS.

THAT IS THE RISK WE FACE .

>> YOU SAY IT IS HIS PLAN.

HAS HE ARTICULATED?

THE OTHERS HAVE SAID THEY ARE WELCOME TO LEAVE.

>> NETANYAHU HIMSELF USED THE SAME TERMS SAYING PALESTINIANS SHOULD LEAVE GAZA.

HE CALLED IT TRUMP 'S VISION .

>> WHEREWITH THEY GO BECAUSE NOT A SINGLE NATION OFFERS THEM VISAS OR CITIZENSHIP.

WHERE SHOULD THEY ACTUALLY GO?

>> THEY WOULD NOT GO BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA AND I HAVE MY COLLEAGUES THERE THAT I COMMUNICATE WITH EVERYDAY, THEY HAVE BECOME MORE STUBBORN ABOUT STAYING IN GAZA.

THEY DON'T WANT TO GO BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY WILL BE HUMILIATED AND THEY WILL HAVE DIGNITY EXCEPT IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

EVEN IF SOME WANT TO GO NO OTHER COUNTRIES ARE WILLING TO TAKE THEM.

EGYPT DOES NOT WANT TO TAKE THEM.

EGYPT REJECTED THAT SO MANY TIMES.

WHAT WE NEED IS TO HAVE PALESTINIANS IN PALESTINE, NOT ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

>> DO YOU THINK YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE?

THE DYNAMICS SHOW, AS YOU JUST DESCRIBED, THE PUSH OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA TOWARD A CERTAIN AREA .

IT IS HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL AND DEADLY FOOD OPERATION THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED LIKE 500 HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE IT STARTED.

AND THE PRESSURE ON PALESTINIAN FARMERS AND VILLAGERS BY THE SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS STILL A WINDOW WHERE YOU GET TO STAY AND HAVE A POLITICAL RESOLUTION?

>> YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE A WINDOW BUT WE HAVE DETERMINATION.

NOBODY CAN GET US OUT OF OUR COUNTRY.

NOBODY CAN STOP US FROM FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

MORE THAN 100 PEOPLE ARE KILLED EVERY DAY IN GAZA.

THEY ARE ALL CIVILIANS.

30% OF THEM ARE CHILDREN.

UP TO NOW ISRAEL HAS KILLED 20,000 PALESTINIAN CHILDREN .

YOU ARE ALSO RIGHT, THOSE WHAT THEY CALL HUMANITARIAN FOUNDATION CENTERS, PEOPLE ARE KILLED THERE WHEN THEY TRIED TO GO AND GET HUMANITARIAN AID.

MORE THAN 560 HAVE BEEN KILLED ALREADY, AND 4000 HAVE BEEN INJURED.

THIS HAS TO STOP .

THE WEST BANK SETTLERS ARE BEHAVING AS TERRORIST GANGS.

THERE IS NO DEAL THAT PASSES WITHOUT NO ATTACKS OF SETTLERS AND PALESTINIAN COMMUNITIES.

WHAT WE NEED IS NOT ONLY TO STOP THE WAR, CHRISTIANE.

WHAT WE NEED IS TO END THE OCCUPATION, AND THE SUFFERING, AND THE CONFLICT.

THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DO THAT IS TO ALLOW PALESTINIANS TO BE FREE FINALLY.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

IT IS TOO LONG AND BAD FOR EVERYBODY.

AS I'VE SAID SO MANY TIMES, ISRAEL ITSELF WILL NEVER BE FREE UNLESS PALESTINE IS FREE.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU THAT.

IT'S NOT JUST ENOUGH IS ENOUGH FOR PALESTINIANS WHICH THE WHOLE WORLD AGREES WITH THAT THEY NEED FREEDOM, INDEPENDENCE, SOVEREIGNTY, DIGNITY BUT CLEARLY THE ISRAELI PEOPLE HAVE HAD ENOUGH AS WELL AND THEY CANNOT EXIST WITH THIS THREAT ON THEIR BORDERS ANYMORE.

THEY JUST WON'T.

YOU SEEN HOW NETANYAHU HAS RESPONDED SINCE OCTOBER 7.

SOMETIMES I JUST WONDER SOMETIMES, YOU SAID IN THE BEGINNING ISRAEL HAS SHOWN IT'S NOT AS STRONG AS IT COULD BE WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES.

PERSONALLY I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

MOST OF THE OPINION AROUND WHAT ISRAEL HAS DONE OVER THE LAST -- FROM DESTROYING THE PROXIES AND ESSENTIALLY NEUTRALIZING IRAN'S ME -- NUCLEAR CAPACITY , IT IS STRONG.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

ANYBODY WANTING TO HOLD THEM BACK FROM THIS , I WONDER BECAUSE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS IT HAD COME TO SOME KIND OF AGREEMENT IN THE VERY LAST DAYS OF ITS EXISTENCE WITH PALESTINIANS, ISRAELIS, AMERICANS TO HAVE A WITHDRAWAL PLAN FOR GAZA.

ISRAELIS OUT AND A CEASE-FIRE.

I WAS TOLD IT WAS THE PALESTINIAN PRIME MINISTER WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THIS WHO KEPT PUSHING FOR A LITTLE BIT MORE AND THE WHOLE THING COLLAPSED AND THEN TRUMP GOT ELECTED.

MY QUESTION IS, AND YOU KNOW THIS, HE SAID NO TO CAMP DAVID.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF NO .

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU THINK THAT IS REALLY PUTTING YOU IN A VERY BAD AND WEAKENED POSITION?

>> THERE ARE TWO POINTS HERE, CHRISTIANE.

FIRST, ISRAEL IS STRONG.

IT HAS A VERY HUGE MILITARY POWER BUT IT IS VERY FLAGYL -- FRAGILE .

WE HAVE SEEN IN THE WAR WITH IRAN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ISRAEL'S HISTORY SINCE 1956 THE ISRAELI SOCIETY WAS AFFECTED.

IT IS A VERY BIG PRICE FOR CONTINUING THIS POLICY OF FORCE.

SECOND, IT IS AMAZING WHILE THEY ARE TRYING TO PUSH US OUT OF THE COUNTRY, MANY CITIZENS ARE LEAVING ISRAEL VOLUNTARILY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TOLERATE THE SITUATION.

WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS THAT THE WAY OUT OF THIS, OF COURSE, YOU CAN ALWAYS BLAME THE VICTIM.

>> IT IS NOT ABOUT BLAMING THE VICTIM.

IT REALLY IS NOT.

>> I'M NOT ACCUSING YOU.

I'M SAYING FREQUENTLY SOME AMERICAN PEOPLE START SAYING THAT PALESTINIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT HAVING A SOLUTION.

WE HAD AN AGREEMENT WHICH I THINK WAS A WEAK AGREEMENT, A BAD AGREEMENT BECAUSE IT DID NOT INSIST ON TOTAL FREE ACTIVITIES, BUT IT WAS AN AGREEMENT.

PALESTINIANS ACCEPTED THE IDEA OF THE TWO STATE SOLUTION.

WHO MADE A LAW IN ISRAEL PREVENTING THE RIGHT FOR PALESTINIANS AND SAYING THE RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION IS EXCLUSIVE FOR JEWISH PEOPLE ON THE LAND OF HISTORIC PALESTINE.

ISRAEL.

WHO MADE THE LAW AFTER 7 OCTOBER NOT TO ALLOW THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, IT WAS THE ISRAELI PARTIES INCLUDING THOSE IN GOVERNMENT AND OPPOSITION.

IN REALITY, NETANYAHU WILL BE JUDGED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE AS THE PERSON WHO DESTROYED MOST OF THE POTENTIAL AND POSSIBILITIES OF PEACE.

PEACE CAN HAPPEN BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR RIGHT TO BE FREE, INDEPENDENT, AND HAVE THE RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION.

>> MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH YOU AND MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS KNOW THAT THE ONLY WAY TO END THIS VIOLENCE OF 75 YEARS IS A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT.

YOU HAVE WORKED VERY HARD TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW FOR YOU PERSONALLY BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE MOST OF THESE 20 MONTHS AND THE VIOLENCE IS REALLY TERRIBLE.

HOW HAS IT BEEN FOR YOU?

>> IT IS VERY HARD ON TWO ISSUES.

FIRST OF ALL, LIFE ON THE WEST BANK IS VERY DIFFICULT BUT WE HAVE 80 MEDICAL TEAMS WORK IN THEIR TREATING 200,000 PEOPLE EVERY MONTH.

THEY TELL US HORRIBLE STORIES.

ALSO ON THE WEST BANK, OUR ECONOMY IS SUFFOCATING.

THE ISRAELIS HAVE IMPOSED ALMOST 1000 MILITARY TROOPS BLOCKING FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.

THEY ARE PUNISHING PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, DEPRIVING IT OF ITS INCOME, $2 BILLION OF TAX REVENUE IS WITHHELD .

>> HE ACTUALLY ANNOUNCED THAT.

>> YES.

THEY ARE SUFFOCATING US AND KILLING US IN GAZA.

I WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU ONE PERSONAL IMPRESSION.

I HAVE TRIED TO KEEP MY STRENGTH SEEING ALL THIS DEATH IN GAZA AND ALL THIS DESTRUCTION.

IT IS VERY PAINFUL GOING ABOUT THE FAMILIES OF MY FRIENDS WHO WERE KILLED AND ELIMINATED.

ONE SCENE THE OTHER DAY, A LITTLE PALESTINIAN CHILD WHO WAS MAYBE ONLY THREE YEARS OLD, HIT IN THE ABDOMEN .

PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO STOP THE BLEEDING.

SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO MAKE IT EASIER .

I LOOKED AT HER FACE.

YOU LOOK AT HER EYES AND IT BROKE MY HEART.

IT REALLY BROKE MY HEART.

I'VE SEEN SO MANY TESTS .

I'VE SEEN SO MANY INJURIES IN MY LIFE.

THE SCENE OF THAT LITTLE CHILD SUMMARIZED IT ALL .

IT IS REALLY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

PALESTINIANS SHOULD NOT SUFFER ANYMORE.

>> YOU ARE A PHYSICIAN AND DO NO HARM IS THE MOTTO, I THINK.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU FINALLY, HAVE YOU INTERNALIZED AS A PALESTINIAN, AS A DOCTOR, AS A HUMANITARIAN THE SEVERE TRAUMA SINCE OCTOBER 7 AND THE SEVERITY OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DAY WHICH HAS RAINED HELD DOWN ON THE WHOLE REGION.

IT'S CAUSED THEM TO HUNKER DOWN AND DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO MAKE SURE THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> I UNDERSTAND, AND I UNDERSTAND VERY WELL ALSO THE FACT, I'M A PERSON THAT KNOWS THE HISTORY OF JEWISH PEOPLE.

I KNOW HOW MUCH THIS AFFECTS FROM THE HOLOCAUST IN GERMANY.

I KNOW HOW MUCH THIS AFFECTS FROM ANTI-SEMITISM WHICH WE ARE NEVER A PART OF.

I KNOW VERY WELL HOW MUCH THEY SUFFERED FROM RUSSIA.

I'M QUITE KNOWLEDGEABLE OF THESE THINGS, BUT I ALSO THINK TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, THE HOLOCAUST HAPPENED NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE CRUELTY OF THE ALI KHAMENEI AT THE TIME, BUT ALSO THE COWARDICE OF POLITICIANS THAT STOOD SILENT WATCHING THE JEWISH PEOPLE BE PERSECUTED.

IT IS THE SAME COWARDICE WE SEE TODAY FROM THE SITE OF MANY POLITICIANS WATCHING THE PALESTINIANS BE PERSECUTED AND DO NOTHING.

>> THIS HAS TO AND .

THERE NEEDS TO BE A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION.

LET'S HOPE THIS MOMENT LEADS PEOPLE THROUGH THAT WINDOW.

>> I HOPE THAT AND I THANK YOU FOR WHATEVER YOU DO IN THAT REGARD.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> HE RUNS SUPREME LEADER AYATOLLAH ALI KHAMENEI EMERGED TO CLAIM ISRAEL WAS CRUSHED BY THE BLOWS OF THE ISLAMIC GOVERNMENT.

>> Translator: I WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATE THE GREAT NATION OF IRAN .

I WANT TO CONGRATULATE THEM FOR A FEW REASONS.

FIRST, I WOULD LIKE TO CONGRATULATE THEM FOR VICTORY OVER THE FAKE REGIME OF THE ZIONIST REGIME .

>> DESPITE THE BRAVADO, THE COST TO IRAN ON THE ATTACKS ARE CONSIDERABLE.

ISRAELI JETS KNOCKED OUT DEFENSE BATTERIES, MISSILE LAUNCHES, AND A LOT MORE.

THEY ASSASSINATED THE TOP ECHELON OF THE ARMED FORCES.

WHILE IT'S NOT CLEAR HOW EXTENSIVELY THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM IS SET BACK, THE DAMAGE WAS CONSIDERABLE.

MORE THAN 600 WERE KILLED ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHICH RAISES A KEY QUESTION, WILL THE WERE STRENGTHEN THE ISLAMIC REGIME OR HELP LEAD TO ITS DEMISE?

KARIM SADJADPOUR ANALYZES U. S. POLICY ON IRAN.

HE IS JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON.

YOU ARE ALSO AN EXPERT ON AYATOLLAH ALI KHAMENEI.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE TONE OF HIS VOICE AND THE DEFIANT STATEMENT ?

>> CHRISTIANE, THIS IS A LEADER AND REGIME WHICH IN MY OPINION HAS REACHED A DEAD-END .

THEY CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THEIR IDEOLOGY, DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL IS CRITICAL TO THEIR SURVIVAL.

THAT VERY SAME IDEOLOGY AS IMPERILING THEIR SURVIVAL.

WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?

WE SAW IN 2022-2023 THEY DETAINED A YOUNG WOMAN.

SHE WAS KILLED IN CUSTODY AND THAT SET OFF SIX MONTHS OF NATIONWIDE UNREST WHICH HAD THE REGIME ON ITS HEELS.

THIS TIME AROUND THE HOSTILITY TOWARD AMERICA AND ISRAEL HAS LED TO A RUINOUS WAR WHICH HAS LED HIM TO BE LIVING IN A BUNKER.

HE'S 86.

HE DOES NOT HAVE THE PHYSICAL AND COGNITIVE STAMINA TO BE LEADING A WAR AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES.

HIS OWN PEOPLE, THE REGIME I WOULD DESCRIBE IS A SWISS CHEESE REGIME.

IT'S BEEN PENETRATED BY ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE .

HIS REGIONAL PROXIES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED.

THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM HE SPENT UPWARDS OF A HALF $1 TRILLION ON HAS BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY DAMAGED ON .

YET, THROUGH ALL OF THIS WE SAW TODAY THAT HIS WORLDVIEW HAS NOT CHANGED AND IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

HE WILL CONTINUE TO SUBJECT HIS POPULATION, A POPULATION WHICH IN MY VIEW HAS ENORMOUS POTENTIAL.

IRAN COULD BE A G 20 NATION, BUT IT WILL CONTINUE TO SUBJECT THEM TO ENORMOUS HARDSHIP.

>> TO THAT POINT, I OBVIOUSLY AGREE WITH YOU.

THE PRESIDENT WHO CAME INTO OFFICE WAS ELECTED LAST YEAR PROMISING TO MAKE IRAN MORE PROSPEROUS, OPEN SOCIALLY, MORE ENGAGED WITH THE WEST.

HE SIGNALED IT WAS TIME TO CHANGE HOW THE COUNTRY IS MANAGE.

I'M QUOTING FROM AN ARTICLE.

HE BASICALLY SAID, THE WAR AND UNITY AMONGST THE PEOPLE HAS CREATED OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE OUR VIEWS ON GOVERNANCE AND THE BEHAVIOR OF OUR OFFICIALS.

HE SAID , THIS IS A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR CHANGE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HE ACTUALLY MEANS?

>> FOR YEARS, INTERNALLY THERE HAS BEEN A STRUGGLE AMONG IRANIANS BETWEEN STATE AND SOCIETY AND WITHIN PARTS OF THE REGIME , WHETHER THEY SHOULD CONTINUE TO ACT AS A REVOLUTION OR A COUNTRY.

WHETHER TO PRIORITIZE REVOLUTIONARY OBJECTIVES, ANTIPATHY TOWARD AMERICA AND ISRAEL OR ECONOMICAL IN THE INTERESTS OF IRAN.

THE PROBLEM IS THE REVOLUTIONARIES HAVE ALL THE GUNS .

WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE DECADES THERE HAVE BEEN SENIOR OFFICIALS IN IRAN AND EVEN PRESIDENTS WHO HAVE TRIED TO REFORM THE SYSTEM.

THE SYSTEM HAS PROVEN IMPERVIOUS TO REFORM.

THE REASON THAT IS, CHRISTIANE, HIS BACK TO THE IDEOLOGY OF IDA TOLAN --AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI.

HE IS LOYAL TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE REVOLUTION.

HE BELIEVES THAT IF YOU REFORM THOSE PRINCIPLES, IF YOU ABANDON THEM IT WILL NOT PROLONG YOUR SHELF LIFE.

IT IS LIKE TAKEN A SLEDGEHAMMER TO THE PILLARS OF THE BUILDING.

IT WILL COLLAPSE ON TOP OF THEIR HEAD.

THE EXAMPLE HE IS OBSESSED ABOUT HIS GORBACHEV'S EFFORT TO REFORM THE SOVIET UNION.

HE SAID THAT DID NOT EXTEND THE SHELF LIFE OF THE SOVIET UNION AND HASTE AND ITS COLLAPSE.

I BELIEVE HE IS CORRECT.

THIS IS A REGIME THAT IS BUILT ON SUCH ROTTEN FOUNDATIONS THAT IT CAN ONLY BE SUSTAINED WITH SIGNIFICANT REPRESSION.

SOME OF THE GREAT POLITICAL PHILOSOPHERS LIKE MECCA VALLEY HAVE ALSO OBSERVED THAT THE IT MOST DANGEROUS MOMENT IS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT TRIES TO REFORM ITSELF.

AS LONG AS HE'S THE LEADER, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THAT MUCH LONGER BECAUSE HE'S 86.

WE SHOULD NOT EXPECT THAT IRAN WILL CHANGE ITS IDENTITY.

>> SO OBVIOUSLY THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK IN THE AIR ABOUT CHANGE AND REGIME CHANGE.

YOU'VE HEARD IT SPOKEN BY THE ISRAELIS AND TRUMP MUSE ABOUT IT AND NOW HE'S BACKTRACKING ON THAT.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN, THE CHACIN BETWEEN IRAN STATIC REGIME AND DYNAMIC POPULATION HAS ARGUABLY BECOME AMONGST THE WIDEST OF ANY SOCIETY IN THE WORLD.

WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF DISSATISFACTION, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE JUST WANT FREEDOM AND SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND A RELEASE FROM THE TERRIBLE ECONOMIC HARDSHIP AND PRESSURE THEY'VE BEEN UNDER FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS.

THE QUESTION IS, WHAT COMES NEXT?

YOU HAVE OUTLINED THAT KHAMENEI IS OLD.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PREDICTING HIS DESK FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT IS IT A MILITARIZED IRAN?

RIGHT NOW THE HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS REPORT THAT THEY ARE RESTING A LOT OF PEOPLE, EXECUTING PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING FOR SPIES IN THE SWISS CHEESE THAT HAS BEEN HEAVILY PENETRATED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK COMES NEXT?

IS IT SOMETHING OR SOMEBODY OR SOME GROUP IN EXILE?

>> CHRISTIANE, WE ARE BOTH OF IRANIAN ORIGIN AND WE BOTH WANT IRAN TO TRANSITION INTO THE NATION IT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BE .

LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, PROSPEROUS, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU LEARN IS TO BE MINDFUL OF NOT CONFLATING YOUR HOPES IN ANALYSIS AND EMOTIONS IN ANALYSIS.

I TRULY BELIEVE IRAN IS A SOCIETY RIPE FOR REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

IT CAN BE A G 20 NATION JUST LIKE TURKEY.

WHAT WE ALSO KNOW FROM AUTHORITARIAN TRANSITIONS IS ONLY ABOUT ONE IN FOUR OF THEM RESULT IN DEMOCRACY.

MORE OFTEN IT RESULTS IN ANOTHER FORM OF AUTHORITARIANISM.

IN IRAN'S CONTEXT, SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE WELL PLACED TO INHERIT POWER ARE THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS.

THAT COULD TAKE THE COUNTRY IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE 190,000 MEN, NOT A MONOLITH.

SOME WANT TO CONTINUE THIS DEATH TO AMERICA REVOLUTIONARY IDEOLOGY OF 1979, BUT YOU HAVE OTHERS THAT WANT TO ASPIRE TO PUT THE ECONOMIC INTEREST, NATIONAL INTEREST BEFORE REVOLUTIONARY IDEOLOGY.

I THINK WHAT THE IRANIAN , THOSE THAT ASPIRE TO LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, THE CHALLENGES THAT THE FOLKS THAT USUALLY WIN THESE AUTHORITARIAN TRANSITIONS ARE NOT THOSE WITH THE BEST IDEAS, BUT THOSE THAT ARE HIGHLY UNITED, ORGANIZED, OFTEN TIMES WITH COERCIVE POWER.

THE IRANIAN LIBERALS DON'T BELIEVE IN COERCIVE POWER BUT THEY HAVE TO GET MORE UNITED, MORE ORGANIZED AND HARNESS THE POPULAR ENERGY TOWARD A MORE LIBERAL OUTCOME.

AT THE MOMENT THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

I WOULD ESTIMATE PERHAPS 80% OF SOCIETY DISLIKE THE REGIME, BUT A REGIME THAT REMAINS HIGHLY ARMED, ORGANIZED, WILLING TO KILL AND MASS CAN PREVAIL OVER SOCIETY THAT IS UNORGANIZED, LEADERLESS AND NOT WILLING TO DIE ON THIS.

>> I WANT TO SHIFT TO THE AFTERMATHS OF THE STRIKES ON THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS INDICATED THOUGH WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN CONFIRMATION THAT THERE WILL BE TALKS ON THE FUTURE OF THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> WE ARE GOING TO TALK TO THEM NEXT WEEK WITH THE RON.

WE MAY SIGN AN AGREEMENT, I DON'T KNOW.

TO ME I THINK IT IS UNNECESSARY.

THEY HAD A WAR, THEY FOUGHT, AND THEY GO BACK TO THEIR WORLD.

I DON'T CARE IF THEY HAVE AN AGREEMENT.

>> I DON'T QUITE GET IT.

TO YOU WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

I DON'T CARE IF THEY HAVE AN AGREEMENT.

HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT TALKS?

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THERE WILL BE TALKS NEXT WEEK.

THE CHALLENGE IS, I DON'T THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CLEAR WHAT THE PRECISE ENDGAME IS FOR HIM.

IF IT'S NOT CLEAR IN HIS HEAD I DON'T THINK ANYTHING CLEAR HAS BEEN ARTICULATED TO IRANIANS.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, I'M REMINDED OF A ESSAY THE HEDGEHOG AND THE FOX.

THERE'S TWO KINDS OF LEADERS, TWO KINDS OF INTELLECTUALS.

HAD TALKS WITH ONE GREAT IDEA AND PASSION AND FOX'S WHO DO AND SAY MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.

KHAMENEI IS A QUINTESSENTIAL HEDGEHOG.

HE WILL ONLY REPEAT THE IDEOLOGY OF RESISTANCE.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP OVER THE LAST MONTH ALONE, LAST MONTH HE DENOUNCED INTERVENTION.

HE DENOUNCED THOSE WHO WERE IN THE BUSINESS OF NATIONBUILDING.

A MONTH LATER HE BECAME AN INTERVENTIONIST HIMSELF.

HE EVEN CAME OUT ONE DAY AND ADVOCATED FOR REGIME CHANGE.

NOW HE'S TALKING ABOUT A DEAL.

I THINK IF IT'S NOT CLEAR IN HIS HEAD WHAT THE ENDGAME HIS THAT OBVIOUSLY HAS NOT BEEN COMMUNICATED CLEARLY TO TEHRAN.

THAT IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

IF THE IRANIANS FEEL --IF THE TAKE AWAY FROM THE IRANIAN REGIME AT THE END OF ALL THIS DESTRUCTION IS THAT THE PROBLEM WASN'T PURSUING A NUCLEAR PROGRAM IT WAS NOT PURSUING A NUCLEAR WEAPON MORE RAPIDLY, THEN WE ARE GOING TO BE IN FOR A REAL CHALLENGE IF THEY DECIDE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW ANY ACCESS TO INSPECTORS , NO ACCOUNTING FOR WHERE THEY ARE HIDING THE URANIUM.

IT'S IMPERATIVE THAT WE HAVE A CLEAR SENSE IN WASHINGTON WHAT THE ENDGAME IS.

>> ON THAT ISSUE, THE PRESIDENT IS LITERALLY LIVID ABOUT THE LEAK OF THAT PRELIMINARY INTELLIGENCE.

ALL DAY THEY'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE PROCESS OF THE BOMBING BUT THEY STILL HAVE NOT SAID WHAT THEY THINK ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO THE CENTRIFUGES, THE STOCKPILE OF URANIUM.

LET'S SAY, A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF IT WAS REMOVED AND SAVED BEFORE ANY STRIKES BEGAN.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE SOME -- THE RESULT OF ALL OF THIS COULD BE PARADOXICALLY TO SAY TO IRAN OR IRAN SAYS TO ITSELF, I HAVE NO MORE DETERRENCE.

I NEED TO GO FOR A BOMB.

>> YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT.

THAT'S A BIG DANGER.

THE TAKE AWAY FROM THOSE HARDLINERS, THE LEADER AND REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS, IS THE PROBLEM WASN'T THAT THEY WERE TOO RADICAL AND HAD A NUCLEAR PROGRAM, THE PROBLEM WAS THEY DID NOT MOVE QUICK ENOUGH TO GET A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THE EXAMPLES OF NORTH KOREA AND PAKISTAN SHOWS YOU IT GIVES YOU SOME IMMUNITY.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT OPTION YOU ARE VULNERABLE TO EXTERNAL INTERVENTION.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

IT'S GREAT TO TALK TO YOU.

> >> NOW TO A PARTY AT A PIVOTAL CROSSROADS.

A PROGRESSIVE STUNNED THE DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT AFTER SECURING A HISTORIC VICTORY IN NEW YORK CITY'S MAYORAL PRIMARIES.

IN A NEW PIECE FOR THE ATLANTIC JOURNALIST DAVID GRAHAM ARGUES THAT PARTY LEADERS ARE FAILING TO KEEP PACE WITH THE MOMENT AS HE EXPLAINS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER, MAYBE THEY ATTENDED ONE OF THOSE BIG NO KINGS MARCHES, PROTESTS THAT HAPPENED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ON JUNE 14.

IF YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT IT OR WATCHING THE COVERAGE YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT WHERE WERE THE DEMOCRATS.

IT TURNS OUT A LOT OF THEM WERE AT A VERY FANCY WEDDING IN THE HAMPTONS THAT LED TO A PIECE THAT YOU WROTE FOR THE ATLANTIC SAYING IT IS A TOUGH TITLE.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SLIDES INTO IRRELEVANCE.

THAT IS KIND OF TOUGH.

WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT.

>> IT'S A FEW THINGS.

YOU HAVE THESE HUGE PROTESTS.

SOME OF THE LARGEST IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

PEOPLE SHOWING OPPOSITION TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

ALTHOUGH THERE WERE ELECTED DEMOCRATS INVOLVED THIS WAS ORGANIZED BY OUTSIDE GROUPS, GRASSROOTS GROUPS.

THE DEMOCRATIC HARDY WAS ON THE SIDELINES.

WHILE THIS WAS GOING ON THEY WERE ATTENDING THE WEDDING OF ALEX SOROS WHOSE FATHER IS A MAJOR DONOR OR THE COMMITTEE HAS LONGTIME MEMBERS WERE RESIGNING.

>> IS THE ISSUE THAT THEY WENT TO THIS WEDDING?

OR IS THE ISSUE THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE A BIG ROLE IN THESE MASSIVE ANTI-TRUMP PROTESTS.

>> IT'S AN UNFORTUNATE CONFLUENCE.

MAYBE SYMBOLISM MORE THAN ANYTHING.

I DON'T THINK DEMOCRATIC INVOLVEMENT WOULD HAVE HELPED.

WHAT WE SEE IS ROBUST OPPOSITION.

IT'S JUST NOT COMING FROM DEMOCRATS.

WE HAVE LEADERS IN CONGRESS WHO SEEM A LITTLE UNSURE ON THE MESSAGE.

HAKEEM JEFFRIES SAYING HE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY CAN DO.

WE DON'T SEE A NATIONAL PARTY LEADER.

JOE BIDEN IS OFF THE SCENE.

KAMALA HARRIS IS CONSIDERING A RUN IN CALIFORNIA.

BARACK OBAMA IS NOT A VERY VISIBLE PRESENCE.

THE PARTY DOES NOT HAVE A CLEAR LEADER OR A CLEAR AGENDA.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

IS IT UNUSUAL FOR THE PARTY OUT OF POWER TO HAVE A VISIBLE AGENDA OR VISIBLE LEADER?

OR IS THIS JUST NORMAL IF I CAN USE THAT WORD?

>> I THINK SOME OF THESE ARE THE NORMAL RESULT OF LOSING AN ELECTION.

A PARTY THAT LOST WILL WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED, IT WILL WANT TO GO OVER THOSE THINGS AGAIN.

AS THEY ARE DOING THAT THEY ARE STILL RELITIGATING THE 2024 ELECTION AND DEALING WITH INTERNAL TURMOIL.

YOU MAY EXPECT THE COMMITTEE TO STEP UP AND FILL THE VOID.

INSTEAD YOU SEE THEM ARGUING OVER WHETHER DAVID HOGG, A GUN ACTIVIST, SHOULD LEAD AND WHAT THE ROLE OF THE CHAIR SHOULD BE.

ALTHOUGH YOU CAN HAVE A LOT OF OPPOSITION, YOU CAN SEE A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT IT IS HARD TO TURN INTO NATIONAL SUCCESS IF THE APPARATUS DOES NOT WORK WELL.

THEY ARE RAISING MONEY, PREPARING A 50 STATE STRATEGY, GETTING BACK ON TRACK IS WHAT THEY SAY.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN A LOT OF THE CONCRETE SIGNS.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A LOT OF INFIGHTING.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER DATA POINTS THAT SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS NOT FLOUNDERING BUT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

WHAT SUGGESTS THAT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT OTHER THAN THEY DON'T HOLD EITHER PARTY OF CONGRESS OR THE WHITE HOUSE WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE A HARDER TIME GETTING THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC.

>> YOU SEE THE EXAMPLE OF THE SO-CALLED ONE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL.

DEMOCRATS HAD A BIT TO SLOW THINGS DOWN IN THE HOUSE AND WERE UNSUCCESSFUL.

IN THE SENATE THEY ARE ENTIRELY ON THE SIDELINES.

YOU ALSO THE --DON'T SEE A CLEAR MESSAGE FROM DEMOCRATS OTHER THAN IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT IS GOOD.

YOU SEE THE DEMOCRATS SUCCEEDING ON THE STATE LEVEL BUT YOU DON'T SEE A CLEAR MESSAGE ON THIS.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS ON IRAN.

IT'S HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE MESSAGES .

SOME SAY THERE SHOULD BE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORIZATION.

SOME ARE OPPOSED BUT THERE'S NO PARTY MESSAGE.

EVEN AS YOU SEE A ROBUST DEBATE INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY .

>> A COUPLE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE SAID IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THE PRESIDENT AS HE DOES IMMEDIATELY CALLED HIM NAMES AND THREATENED TO RUN A PRIMARY OPPONENT AGAINST HIM.

DO YOU CALL THAT A ROBUST DEBATE OR IS THAT A ROBUST DEBATE IN THE BASE?

>> IT'S HARD TO DRAW LINES IN THE BASE AND THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT.

YOU HAVE THESE FACTIONS BASICALLY A FOX NEWS FACTION AND X FOX NEWS FACTION DEBATING THESE THINGS.

YOU SEE THE INFLUENCE ON MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

THAT CONSTITUTES A DEBATE INSIDE THE PARTY.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT YOUR PIECE.

ONE OF THE DATA POINTS IS THAT THE PARTY WAS IN SO MUCH TURMOIL OVER DAVID HOGG.

SAY LITTLE MORE ABOUT WHO HE IS AND WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT?

>> DAVID HOGG IS AN ACTIVIST.

HE WAS A STUDENT AT MARJORY STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL WHEN THE SHOOTING OCCURRED AND HAS BECOME A MAJOR ACTIVIST.

HE RAN FOR VICE CHAIR OF THE PARTY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR AND WON AND ANNOUNCED HE WOULD BE RUNNING PRIMARY CHALLENGES TO DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENTS WHICH IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR A LEADING PARTY OFFICER TO DO.

KEN MARTIN, THE CHAIR HAS TRIED TO DISSUADE HIM .

ULTIMATELY WHAT HAPPENED IS HOGG WAS REMOVED FROM HIS POST OVER A CHALLENGE OVER WHETHER HE HAD BEEN ELECTED ACCORDING TO THE RULES OF THE PARTY DIRECTLY AND HE DECLINED TO RUN AGAIN.

HE IS NOW GONE BUT IN THE MEANTIME HE'S TAKEN A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY AND TO THE LEAKED REPORTING KEN MARTIN SAID HE FELT LIKE DAVID HOGG'S DISTRACTIONS HAVE MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO LEAD THE PARTY AND MADE HIM QUESTION WHETHER HE WANTED TO STAY AS THE CHAIR.

>> IT'S A BIG DEAL BECAUSE IT SHOWED THEY WERE SO IN TURMOIL OVER DAVID HOGG?

WHAT OTHER CONCLUSIONS DID YOU DRAW FROM THAT WHOLE EPISODE?

>> I THINK THERE'S TWO THINGS.

IT'S A BAD SIGN IF A PARTY TRYING TO TAKE ON A FIGURE AS POWERFUL AS TRUMP IS HAVING A HARD TIME NEGOTIATING WHAT TO DO WITH THE 25-YEAR-OLD ACTIVIST WITH A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY BEHIND HIM.

IT DOESN'T SUGGEST A PARTY THAT CAN MOVE DECISIVELY AND PLAN.

ALSO THE FALLOUT HAS BEEN A LITTLE CONCERNING.

WE SAW RESIGNATIONS FROM THE COMMITTEE OF THE HEAD OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS, THE LEADER OF ANOTHER POWERFUL UNION.

THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IMPORTANT IN THE PARTY FOR A LONG TIME.

THEY ARE LEAVING AND CRITICIZING KEN MARTIN.

THIS IS A TIME WHEN THE DEMOCRATIC EDDIE HAS BEEN NOT ONLY LOSING SUPPORT AMONG UNION VOTERS BUT ALSO UNION LEADERS.

THE TEAMSTERS TO CLIENT TO THE --DECLINE TO ENDORSE THEM IN THE LAST ELECTION WHICH WAS A MAJOR VICTORY FOR TRUMP.

IT'S A PROBLEM ELECTORALLY BUT ALSO FOR THE COFFERS OF THE CAMPAIGN AND THE BOOTS ON THE GROUND FOR RUNNING THE CAMPAIGN INTO 2028.

>> WHAT IS YOUR BOTTOM LINE ANALYSIS OF WHAT AILS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

JOHN FETTERMAN, THE SENATOR FROM PENNSYLVANIA ARGUES THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE BECOME TOO PRECIOUS.

THEY ARE FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE OVER WHETHER YOU DRINK A SINGLE- USE PLASTIC WATER BOTTLE AT A PUBLIC EVENT AND FIGHT ABOUT RULES THINGS AND THEY ARE KIND OF LOSING THE PLOT.

OTHER PEOPLE FEEL THAT, THESE RULES MATTER .

TRYING TO FIND OUT THESE ISSUES IS A SIMPLE OF WHAT THE PARTY STANDS FOR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> IN SOME WAYS WE ARE JUST SEEING AN IDENTITY CRISIS.

AFTER THE 2016 ELECTION DEMOCRATS COULD SAY THAT WAS A FLUKE AND AFTER 2020 THEY COULD SAY THINGS ARE BACK THE WAY THEY WERE.

THE 2024 ELECTION MADE IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ANYMORE.

THEY DON'T KNOW YET WHAT THEY MIGHT LOOK LIKE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

ON SOME LEVEL FETTERMAN IS RIGHT.

IT'S NOT JUST THE ISSUES THEMSELVES BUT THE WAY THEY ARE EXPRESSED.

YOU DON'T SEE LEADERS THAT SEEM ABLE OR READY TO TAKE A BOLD STANCE .

IT IS VERY HARD WHEN THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITE PARTY IS SOMEBODY WHO MORE THAN ANYTHING IS GOOD AT GRABBING ATTENTION.

IT'S HARD TO BE RELEVANT WHEN YOU CAN'T GET ATTENTION AND THAT'S WHAT DEMOCRATS SEEM TO BE.

>> THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS COULD IT ALSO BE TRUE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS ALSO IRRELEVANT?

THE MAIN CHARACTER HERE IS DONALD TRUMP.

THE PARTY FOLLOWS HIS LEAD.

THE REAL ISSUE IS FIGURING OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH HIM.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS IN AN IDENTITY CRISIS BEFORE HE ENTERED THE SCENE.

HE FILLS THE VACUUM FOR NOW BUT WILL NOT BE THERE ALWAYS.

I DON'T THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS A SENSE OF WHAT IT WILL BE POST TRUMP.

THEY HAVE BEEN COASTING ON HIS POPULARITY.

WE HAVE SEEN DECADES IN WHICH THE PARTY COMMITTEES HAVE BECOME LESS AND LESS POWERFUL.

SO FOR NOW WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE CULMINATION OF THE LONG- RUNNING PROCESS.

>> IS THIS A PROBLEM?

THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT MENTION POLITICAL PARTIES.

THEY ARE AN ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE THAT AROSE , THERE USED TO BE MORE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES THAN NOW.

WHAT HAS REPLACE THEM?

WHAT IT BE MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS?

WHAT HAS REPLACED THEM?

>> PART OF IT IS THE MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS BUT ALSO CANDIDATES WHO HAVE MORE POWER.

PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP WHO ARE DRIVEN BY PERSONALITY BUT ALSO EXTREME CANDIDATES.

IT TENDS TO DRIVE PEOPLE TOWARD THE MOST ELECT DOUBLE CANDIDATES WHICH TENDS TO BE MORE MODERATE.

IN AN ECOSYSTEM WITH IDEOLOGICAL MEDIA AND NO STRONG PARTY ORGANIZATION IT IS EASY FOR A FIGURE LIKE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE TO GET A LOT OF MONEY AND GRAB A LOT OF POWER.

WE CAN SEE THAT IN THE POLARIZATION OF BOTH PARTIES.

A GOOD PARTY APPARATUS CAN HELP TO MAINTAIN THAT.

IN THE ABSENCE WE HAVE MORE POLARIZATION, MORE PARTISANSHIP, MORE DRIVEN TO THE OTHER PARTY BUT DRIVEN BY ANY KIND OF ORGANIZATION AROUND A CLEAR IDENTITY.

>> SO WHAT REACTION TO DO GET YOUR PIECE ?

IT CAN'T HAVE BEEN I'M SO GLAD SOMEBODY WROTE THAT.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HEARD ESPECIALLY FROM SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE PIECE?

>> WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, LOOK WE ARE UNDERSTANDING WE ARE TRYING TO REORGANIZE.

WE THINK THE DAVID HOGG THING HAS BEEN A DISTRACTION.

WE HAVE GOOD FUNDRAISING AND WE ARE WORKING FOR THE NEXT ELECTION.

ALSO PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING THEY FEEL THEY ARE ORGANIZED, DOING THINGS ON THE GROUND AND MAKING THINGS HAPPEN AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

WHAT I TOLD THEM IS THAT IS ALL IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT FOR MIDTERM ELECTIONS, BUT YOU CAN'T WIN A NATIONAL ELECTION WITHOUT A NATIONAL PARTY.

>> SO WHO ARE THEY LOOKING TO?

THEY HAVE A HANDFUL OF GOVERNORS THAT ARE IMPRESSING PEOPLE LIKE THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN, THE GOVERNOR OF MARYLAND, AND I GUESS GAVIN NEWSOM THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA THAT CANNOT RUN AGAIN.

IS THAT ABOUT IT?

>> I THINK THAT THERE IS EXCITEMENT ABOUT PETE BUTTIGIEG AND THE SAME HESITATION THAT HE'S TOO YOUNG OR NOT A CLEAR POLITICAL BASE .

THESE QUESTIONS CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED BY PRIMARY .

THERE ARE CLEARLY A LOT OF CANDIDATES THAT ARE NOT READY TO PUT THEIR NAME AND BUTTER MAKING THE STEPS YOU WOULD TAKE IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

>> I WAS WONDERING IF THE PIECE PROVOKED PEOPLE TO THINK AGAIN A RELITIGATE THE WHOLE BIDEN- HARRIS DYNAMIC.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO FAULT JOE BIDEN VERY MUCH FOR NOT STEPPING OFF THE SCENE OF THE --SOONER AND NOT GIVING HARRIS A CHANCE TO GET HERSELF IN BETTER POSITION.

OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AND SAY, WHAT THEY NEEDED WAS A PRIMARY SO PEOPLE COULD FIGHT IT OUT AND SHARPEN THEIR MESSAGES AND GALVANIZE THE PUBLIC.

>> I HAVE HEARD A LOT OF THAT.

IT'S NEVER GONE AWAY.

I THINK IT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THERE IS AN ACCOUNTABILITY ISSUE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE IN DEMOCRATIC POLITICS VOUCHED FOR JOE BIDEN AND QUICKLY CHANGE THEIR MIND AFTER THE FIRST DEBATE WHEN IT BECAME CLEAR HE COULD NO LONGER DO THE JOB.

IT'S A BIT OF AN IRRELEVANT QUESTION.

I CAN'T IMAGINE A SITUATION WHERE DEMOCRATS ARE RUNNING AN 80 SOMETHING-YEAR-OLD CANDIDATE IN THE SAME WAY.

THE ACCOUNTABILITY IS IMPORTANT.

IT IS A ONE-OFF ELECTION.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT THEY WILL DO IN 2026 OR 2028.

>> YOU SAID IT'S EASIER TO DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEM BUT TO SOLVE IT BUT BASED ON YOUR REPORTING WHAT ARE SOME OF THE KEY STEPS YOU THINK THEY NEED TO TAKE?

>> I THINK THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO TAKE RISKS.

THEY SEEM VERY CAUTIOUS.

THERE'S A REAL FOCUS ON THE MODERATE VERSUS LEFT QUESTION.

I'M NOT CERTAIN THAT'S THE MOST RELEVANT WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT.

IT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO TAKE A POSITION THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING .

THEY CAN GRAB ATTENTION.

WE SAW THIS WITH THE CORY BOOKER FILIBUSTER.

THAT WAS NOT A PARTICULARLY MODERATE OR LEFT A STATEMENT THAT IT GRABBED A LOT OF ATTENTION.

>> BEFORE YOU GO, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW THE MIDDLE EAST IS VERY MUCH IN PLAY.

THERE'S A LOT OF SKEPTICISM FROM THE AMERICAN PUBLIC ABOUT FURTHER AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT ESPECIALLY FROM THE ROBUST MILITARY STANDPOINT.

DOES THIS OFFER AN OPPORTUNITY FOR DEMOCRATS TO ARTICULATE BUT A LOT OF DEMOCRATS THINK OR DOES IT FURTHER MAKE THEM IRRELEVANT BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY FOREIGN-POLICY IS STILL THE PRESIDENT'S CALL.

>> IT IS A CHANCE LIKE ANY NUMBER OF THESE MOMENTS FOR THEM TO TAKE A POSITION.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS UNPOPULAR ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

DEMOCRATS ARE CONCERNED.

SOME HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THE PARTY IS SEEN AS THE PARTY OF WAR.

IT'S A CHANCE TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES, CRITICIZE TRUMP FOR OVERREACH AND ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS A REAL ALTERNATIVE.

I DO NOT SEE THE PARTY AS A WHOLE DOING THAT EVEN THOUGH INDIVIDUAL VOICES ARE SPEAKING OUT.

>> DO DEMOCRATS HAVE A COHERENT MESSAGE HERE?

IS IT AN OPPORTUNITY OR IS IT ANOTHER SIDELINE YET AGAIN BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT CONTROLS THE APPARATUS?

>> I THINK IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

DEMOCRATS ARE STILL SO SHELLSHOCKED BY THE LAST ELECTION.

THEY BELIEVE THEY LOST PARTLY ON IMMIGRATION AND THAT'S TRUE.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ON IMMIGRATION OR THEY HAVE TO EMBRACE THE PRESIDENT'S POSITION ON IMMIGRATION.

POLLING SHOWS THAT THERE IS OVERREACH.

PEOPLE ARE IN FAVOR THAT CLOSING THE BORDERS BUT NOT THE ENFORCEMENT WE'VE SEEN.

THEY ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF SENDING THE NATIONAL GUARD AND THE MARINES TO LOS ANGELES.

AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE CASE FOR EXAMPLE OF KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA, IF THERE ARE VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION AND COURT ORDERS THAT'S A MATTER OF WHAT IS RIGHT.

DEMOCRATS SHOULD STAND UP AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

THERE'S A DOUBLE OPPORTUNITY THERE BUT YOU CAN SEE THEM VERY NERVOUS ABOUT TAKING ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BE SEEN AS GETTING ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

>> ANY SLEEP OR OPPORTUNITIES WE HAVE NOT MENTIONED?

ANYTHING WE HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT THAT OFFERS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR DEMOCRATS THAT WE CAN KEEP AN EYE ON.

>> THEY HAVE A HARD TIME DRIVING THE NEW CYCLE SO IT'S HARD TO SEE WHERE THINGS ARE GOING.

ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS, AS WE'VE SEEN FROM THE NO KINGS PROTEST THERE IS A ROBUST OPPOSITION.

EACH TIME HE DOES SOMETHING UNPOPULAR THERE IS A CHANCE FOR DEMOCRATS TO STRIKE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

> >> FINALLY THE HAPPIEST EMMY WIN EVER .

OUR TEAM IS THRILLED AND PROUD THAT OUR CONVERSATION WITH JAKE LARSON WON A GOLDEN TROPHY LAST NIGHT.

I SPOKE TO THE CENTENARIAN AND D-DAY VETERAN IN NORMANDY, FRANCE, LAST YEAR THE 80th ANNIVERSARY OF THE BEACH LANDINGS HE TOOK PART IN THAT WOULD TURN THE TIDE OF THE WAR.

HERE'S WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT WHAT MOTIVATED HIM AND HIS COMRADES.

>> WE WERE ALL KIDS.

>> DID YOU KNOW THAN WHAT YOU WERE FIGHTING FOR?

>> DEFINITELY.

THAT WE KNEW.

EVERY ONE OF US.

>> TELL US.

>> EVERY ONE OF US WAS PREPARED TO GIVE OUR LIFE, TO KICK HITLER 'S OUT OF EUROPE.

>> AND YOU DID.

>> JUST AMAZING.

THE BIGGEST WINNER IS UNDOUBTEDLY LARSON HIMSELF.

HE SENT US THIS MESSAGE WHEN HE HEARD THE NEWS.

>> IT'S NOT ONLY AMAZING, IT'S UNBELIEVABLE.

>> YOU ARE SELDOM SPEECHLESS.

>> HOW CAN YOU EVEN EXPECT TO WIN SOMETHING LIKE THAT ?

IT'S PHENOMENAL.

AND HERE I AM , A LITTLE COUNTRY BOY THAT JOINS THE INFANTRY AT 15 YEARS OLD .

I COME HERE NOW, 102 GOING ON 103 AND TIME WINNING SOMETHING LIKE THIS .

THERE IS A GOD .

THERE IS A GOD .

>> THANK YOU, JAKE, FOR YOUR INCREDIBLE STRENGTH, HUMILITY, AND YOUR HUMOR WHICH CONTINUES TO INSPIRE GENERATIONS.

HE GOES BY PAPA JAKE ON TIKTOK AND HAS 102 MILLION FOLLOWERS.

> >> THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/TRAN02 .

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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