Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B Carpenter Foundation the Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation This week on To the Contrary, Surveys show fewer Americans are religious than before, and how President Biden's rule on prayer in public schools will impact that.

Then, anti-abortion factions take reproductive rights to the courts and state legislatures {MUSIC } Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe' Welcome to to the contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

Joining us today Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton Republican consultant, Rina Shah co-founder, Reproaction Erin Matson and Republican Strategist Ann Stone.

Up first, Americans losing religion.

Nearly a quarter of Americans say they have switched religions or left religion altogether.

A 50% jump from 2021, according to a new survey.

Most Americans say they switched because of disagreements with their old religion, with LGBTQ issues frequently cited.

Many people switched from religious to unaffiliated, a part of a larger trend.

The waning influence of Christianity over America.

This comes as religious conservatives are trying to inject religion back into public life.

One hot button issue school prayer.

The Biden administration has released new guidelines after a U.S. Supreme Court case sided with a coach who prayed on the football field.

The new guidelines say teachers cannot encourage kids to join in prayer at school or use class time to lead prayers.

However, they are allowed to engage in private religious expression outside of class time.

First of all, let's talk about the religious switch at a time when I think nobody, nobody could doubt that America is politically becoming more and more religion.

In other words, the religious powers in the Republican Party are trying to make everybody else, whether Christian, whether believers or any other faith or not, lives by their what some people would say very skewed vision of Christianity is.

And yet at the same time, fewer people are belonging to churches and saying that they're religious.

What's going on?

Well, the society as a whole is becoming less religious.

I was shocked by the statistic showing that 56% of people have stopped believing at all.

So whereas the United States has often been seen as a Christian religious society, it seems to becoming less and less so.

But how do you account for the political, you know, boomerang effect like politically or on one side and socially, Culturally, we're on the opposite side.

I think it matches where people are.

Republicans tend to be more religious than Democrats.

Right.

But how is it that since now a minority of people in America even believe in God or go to church?

56% don't.

Then why is it that more and more highly religious conservatives, evangelicals, for the most part, are being elected to office?

Well, they'll be elected to office in Republican states which match their religious affiliation.

I have sort of looked at it over the years as tyranny of the minority, blaming it on the Electoral College, which of course gives gives rural states outsize power in terms of electing a president.

Now, so rural Americans, of course, are more likely to hold of religious beliefs and and hold on to those beliefs for a far longer time than those in urban areas.

But I think what's most striking to me is the data that's out there about Americans and age demographics.

When we're talking about Gen Z, those Americans between the ages who are now actually between 11 and age 26.

They are shunning and switching religions faster than other young adults and and other Americans.

And that's not expected to stop.

So to me, it's it's really about sort of what what bucket of your life you're in.

Are it for millennials or Zillenials people born after 1981.

There is this notion that we are living in this information age that is unlike any other.

And and it's become so rapid that it is made us question everything around us.

And I think that's really what's at the core of the matter here is that with all this information that's available, you're finding younger Americans question these long held beliefs.

And is that because you talked about the information age?

Is that because of the spread of the Internet and access to all kinds of knowledge that people living in rural areas and poor countries never had before?

And in this country, in rural areas, of course, I was mentioning and the fact that we are becoming bit by bit a more educated nation.

Yeah, I think it's a perfect storm of rapid information, it being at your fingertips in a way that it hadn't been before.

For example, those of us who went to college around the year 2000, we had email addresses when we got to our freshman dorms.

But after that time, you know, it's really picked up.

And when we talk about how people are consuming news these days, that also has something to do with it.

So education plays in there as well.

The more informed you are, the more likely you are to push back on what's being sold to you as truth.

And truth then becomes a sort of funny word because it's then murky.

What is the truth to you?

And I think politically we see the ramifications of that.

And this is not going to be a problem that goes away.

It's here to stay.

It's about how leaders, whether they be in churches or temples, how they will move forward with their congregants from now forward.

Erin, what's your take on this?

Well, Bonnie, I, I is one of my great pride and joy in my life is that I'm a board member of Catholics for Choice that represents the pro-choice majority within the Catholic people.

And when I was looking at the results of the survey, I was just stunned to see A- that that folks from the Catholic denomination were most likely to be on the move out of that denomination.

And it was no surprise to me because, you know, so frequently we hear from people within the Catholic people who don't agree with what the bishops are teaching about women, about contraception, about LGBT people, about abortion.

And I notice with a lot of interest that a good 30% of people who made a move out of their church did so because of the teachings about LGBTQ people.

What this survey did is it made me have more questions and wonder what we're going to see over the long term with people moving out of religions because of what's happening on abortion and reproductive rights in this country.

Because people are mad and people are concerned and people know there's nothing wrong with controlling your own body.

God still loves you.

The way Erin described it a moment ago It's kind of like the prison gates are open and the prisoners are flooding through, meaning they realize they don't have to believe in God.

And it doesn't make sense in today's culture, for the most part.

And Republican strategists have been warning Republican politicians for a while that this this tight affiliation with Christian evangelicals is going to bite them in the behind at some point.

I don't think it's going to bite them because of God.

And I want to say that this entire discussion, I want to look at it sort of the macro level.

You know, I don't believe God is dead.

I don't believe ultimately people will flee from God.

And I think you can be educated and believe in God.

So let's put that on the table.

The problem is, in this country, we've seen a real fall not only in religion, but in the way people respect the rule of law, the way people respect each other.

It's a problem.

And then fleeing churches only adds to the problem.

It doesn't help it.

So, yes, there are a lot of people who are disagreeing with their religion, standing up and leaving that religion for another.

In my church, I'm Lutheran, I'm ELCA, which is the liberal part of the church.

We very much embrace the gay agenda.

We'll female pastor and we have a great outreach with Black Lives Matter banners on the front of the church, etc.

But that alone is not what's going to bring people back in.

It's people understanding that there's more out there than themselves in the Internet.

And I think the Internet has made us very I-centric.

And I think we are going through a phase of people trying to find themselves and looking to the Internet for solutions.

Maybe we'll find out.

Internet is not God, and the people they're finding on the Internet are not God.

And you are starting to see in some parts of the country a little mini religious revival among young people where they are starting to come back because they're realizing it's got to be more out there than what the Internet is giving them.

Well, let me ask you this, because you made the statement that educated people can be religious, which, of course, we know is the case.

However, the data show that when populations become educated, they become, overall, This is these are data now, not personal experience that societies and cultures become less religious.

For decades now, the churches have been emptying out in Europe.

Why?

Because particularly, women are more educated than they were decades ago.

I look particularly years ago, I did a story and did some research on Italy, the seat of the Catholic Church and Italian women and Catholicism.

Italy at that time, I don't know if it's still true, had the highest percentage of female Ph.Ds in the world.

It also had a much larger percentage of women not belonging to the Catholic Church, Where it is where it's headquartered, so to speak, is I think you're making a very good point.

And there is a distinction.

And I think, as Erin has said to women, it's going against the church because they see that the church has turned against them and doesn't stand up to them or their rights as well.

And as you it's worth noting for the viewership that most mainstream religions are pro-choice.

They see abortion as the last resort, but they are, in fact, pro-choice.

So the abortion issue alone isn't explaining why people are turning from religion.

I really do think it has more to do with this culture that's created through the Internet, where people begin to believe they're little demigods and that they can control a lot more in their lives and around them.

And the answers are around them on the Internet and that are not in the Bible or not in the Torah.

And or not in, you know, any other religious affiliation.

And I think that's going to turn I think we're going through a time period where people are, you know, asking questions, exploring.

But I think it is going to turn.

It has to, because civilization right now is not in a good place.

Eleanor, your thoughts about about the European situation versus our situation now?

We do.

One thing I didn't mention when I talked about the case of Christian churches in Europe emptying out.

Immigrants tend to be more religious than native born Americans.

How does that play into all this?

Where you see increase in religion, you will see.

You will have to look at immigrants because that is not the case for native born Americans who are less and less religious.

So you think immigration is responsible for any growth or continued belief?

We see decline among native Americans.

So if there is to be growth, it is going to have to come from immigrants coming to the United States, some of whom appear to have religious affiliations.

All right.

And now let's get to the President Biden's changes on the rules, on prayers and public schools.

I think a lot of Americans were very shocked to see the demonstration of the coach who encouraged team members on the field after a winning game to pray with him.

Is it fair, from everybody's perspective, that Biden has said "no more"?

You can pray in private meeting school meetings outside of school, but you cannot pray in organized, required courses or locations or activities.

I'm very much a fan of that.

I think it's really important because what happens is that some people feel this pressure, right?

And then they feel excluded by leaders like teachers or coaches.

If they're not partaking in something that everybody else is.

And look, and children are so impressionable.

We all know that.

Right.

But the reality here is that this is just being practical.

And I'm a person of faith.

I grew up in the Bible Belt in West Virginia.

I really believe there are many paths to one, and I've always believed in the superior entity.

So, you know, these have kind of been the binding principles that have allowed me to forge connections with others who are not of the same faith that I am.

And I'm a practicing, Jain.

And I also happen to practice some Hinduism as well.

So I'm a part of a blended household.

But every time that I've gone into a largely, predominantly Christian area, these are the beliefs that I share that allow me to sort of build some bridges with people and let them know that I'm a person of faith and and that we don't have to agree about everything.

But there are these things we can agree on.

But again, children, they they're not that developed.

Right.

They're not able to make those cases for themselves and especially in situations where they may feel forced.

So I think this is a very good move by Biden, who is, of course, a person of faith himself and has made no secret of his Catholicism.

And I think religion actually is it's deeply personal to me.

And I think that's a beautiful thing that America actually celebrates and allows the individual to do, is let that be an individual thing.

Because as individuals, we all have our own relationship with God and I very much I'm a fan of talking about the separation of church and state and and to see Biden make this this move for school prayers, I don't think leads to the degradation of society.

I think helps make things fairer and practical and feel comfortable for everybody.

Eleanor, what do you think are the rule changes?

And because they are rule changes, not laws.

How do they work up against the Supreme Court ruling which said that prayer led in school at school events like football games is is legal.

How are those two differing government directions going to merge?

Well, I think the reconciliation has occurred when when private prayer is condoned.

The coach that prayed and did not compel students to pray.

That is that is condoned.

So I don't think that comes up against any kind of constitutional problem.

The Supreme Court has said it's okay.

President Biden issues guidance, which I assume means non-binding rules.

That changes it a little bit.

What if somebody brings a lawsuit saying the Biden rule should be thrown out?

The Biden rules or the Department of Education rules do not encourage or discourage prayer.

And it seems to me that strikes a neutral balance that is allowed.

Well, I think the likelihood of a lawsuit is very high.

Let's say that openly, right?

I absolutely agree with the rules.

I think they're a great idea that we are best served as a country with a clear separation between church and state.

We do not want the government legislating religion and we don't want our children in schools to feel coerced into participating in religious activities in order to get good grades or get a good spot on the field or whatever the case may be.

But we also know at the same time that there are organized forces in this country.

I believe that we're fighting authoritarianism globally and that our version of that here in the United States is white Christian nationalism.

And there are folks who are trying to wrap themselves around a veneer of religion in order to justify turning the United States into something that doesn't look like a democracy.

Do I think those people are going to raise hue and cry about the Biden rules?

Yes, they're already doing it.

I'm sure they're going to sue, and I hope they lose.

All I can say is, wow.

I'll tell you, I'd like to introduce you to some of the people I'm sure you would call white Christian supremacists.

And they really are horrible people.

They have a very different view of the way the country should be run from you.

But trust me, villainizing them that way is not going to help us go forward as a country.

And I'll tell you the stuff people have said about me because I'm pro-choice and Republican are pretty nasty stuff to the point where I had to have armed guards with me at several Republican conventions and all that.

But I've taken the time now to sit down and talk to people, and a lot of them are shocked.

They were shocked to find out that I went to church.

They were shocked to find out I was president of my congregation.

I mean, they really, truly have this one, you know, incredibly horrible view of people who oppose them on different issues.

And as a country, we've got to get people on both sides to start looking at each other as human beings and work through some of these.

The more we continue to allow people to be divided and have these, I think, incorrect views of each other, we're going to continue to be extremely divided as a nation.

All right.

From rest, less religion to more challenges to abortion rights The GOP continues to curtail abortion in America with laws and lawsuits.

But critics ask whether Republicans will put nearly as much effort into new laws that support financially struggling mothers and hungry children.

Up until now, about 20 states have passed anti-abortion laws, though most have not added financial support for mothers and families.

North Carolina just passed a 12 week abortion ban, which offered some funding to support families.

But experts suggest there could be significant holes in the plan.

The one state that passed an abortion ban that has been praised for its passing a corresponding law that really supports mothers and families is Florida.

Political observers are wondering whether the GOP will make more commitments like that or if it will remain an exception.

Meanwhile, the legal challenges to mifepristone the medication commonly prescribed to induce abortion continue in the courts.

Erin, do you, as an activist leader in the pro-choice movement, do you see pairing money, which as we all know, by the time it gets down to the mother and child or children in question is going to be a pittance as making good on banning abortion for politicians who vote to do so?

Oh, absolutely not, Bonnie.

First of all, there's no excuse for the abortion bans that are passing in this country and that are what's happening to people as a result.

You have people who are literally being forced to wait out in their cars outside the hospital while they have 100 degree fever as they further enter into sepsis before they're able to get the treatment they need because of these hateful laws that are on the books.

So increasing health care subsidies for children is in no way some sort of compensation for that.

So we've seen very clearly over time that the anti-abortion agenda is very crystal clear and simple.

It is about banning abortion.

It is about banning contraception.

It is about going after trans people.

It is about LGBTQ oppression or against LGBTQ people.

And so and it's ironic, but it's not that the people who are most supportive of meeting people where they're at, whether they want to choose abortion or not, are the people who are also supporting a robust social safety net.

So there simply is no correlation between those two.

Nor in any way could it make it up.

Rina, uh Barney Frank, the retired congressman from Massachusetts, who was, I believe, the first or one of the first openly gay members of of the House, famously said there are conservatives interest in abortion, begins at conception and ends at life.

Are these laws meant to try to get away from that characterization, which has hounded the party for the last 30 years?

It's really, really important that we look at these laws and we really kind of dig down deep as to what's at play here.

What's on the table is women's freedom.

And as a long time conservative, I've always believed that I would not choose abortion for myself.

But what another woman chooses to do, she she can do.

She's a freedom to do that.

That's as American as you can get.

Allowing somebody to have bodily autonomy.

So the fact that that that is now top of mind for the average American woman of reproductive age in the year 2023 is troubling to me because I don't think that really it doesn't jive for me with conser.. with the values of the Republican Party.

And again, this is about freedom.

Very, very simple.

But at the end of the day, I know that abstinence only education hasn't worked.

I know there's been a myriad of possibilities that the Republican Party and its not in its current incarnation, it's talked about.

Prior to Donald Trump, there were robust conversations and Ann Stone could speak to those because she was a part of those.

But what I'm really worried about is how we move forward in bringing in younger women who who genuinely feel like this is an attack on on their bodily autonomy.

That is it's plain simple.

There is something wrong here when American women are not able to do what they need to do, and that is to seek out reproductive care.

You know, if you can hear my voice, I'm really mixed up and upset about where the party is because I just don't I forget about the votes.

Just doesn't make sense to me.

And to see these attacks across the country in particularly conservative strongholds is just awful.

It's nonsensical and it's anti-American.

Eleanor, last question to you and thank you Rina Last question to you.

Is the only reason that Florida had what someone might call the most humane law coupled with its abortion ban?

Is that only going on because Governor DeSantis, Ron DeSantis of Florida, is running for president and he wants to appeal to mainstream Republicans and independents?

Precisely, precisely because in running for president and he's very close to announcing he has to separate himself from other Republican states and to look more inclusive.

So I think the president his presidential ambitions have everything to do with the stance he is taking out of communication with other Republicans.

The point I make to the Republican leaders again and again and again, you know, they were like, oh, we'll send back to the states to be great.

That's how we'll get rid of abortion.

I said, you morons.

Every time this issue has been on the state ballot forever, since the beginning of Roe, the pro-choice side always wins and it wins big even in conservative states.

And I'm told that again and again and again.

And they were so stupid they didn't go back and look.

They had it in their mind somehow that when it got to the States, everything else would be great.

I said, You guys do not understand the trouble you're buying.

People are pro-choice.

They may not want abortion pushed, but they want women to make the decision.

All right.

Thank you all for a lively and informative discussion.

That's it for this edition.

Let's continue the discussion on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and visit our PBS's Web site at pbs.org/tothecontrary and whether you agree or think To the Contrary, See you next time.

{MUSIC } Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation.

And the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation