>> Hi.

I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness", where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, relationship expert Matthew Hussey joins me.

And whether you're healing from a broken heart or exploring a new relationship, today's episode is a must watch.

We will explore why breakups can hurt even when you know it's for the best.

What it truly means to change for someone that you love, and how to identify if you're dating a high value person.

I'm so glad that you're here today.

Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪♪ ♪♪ Why is it painful when we go through a breakup, even when we know the person wasn't the right person for us?

>> Wow.

>> Well, I think there's, in a sense, there's two types of breakups where someone is wrong for us.

There's the kind where we don't know that they're wrong for us, and we've told ourselves they are the one.

And then they break up with us.

Because normally, if we haven't told ourselves someone is wrong, then we're just hanging on for dear life, wanting to keep them.

But if they break up with us, it's like in a sense, there's an extra pain of we have to even get to the realization that they were wrong for us, which takes some time, because when someone breaks up with us, our ego kicks in and tells us it's because you're not good enough, it's because you're not worthy, it's because... And if you were just more, if you just did better, if you just didn't make that mistake, if you just weren't so high maintenance in this way, you would have been able to hold on to this person.

And because you're not sexy enough, cool enough, successful enough, interesting enough, whatever, thin enough, young enough, whatever, you couldn't hold on to this person.

And it often takes us time to realize this wasn't the right person for me.

Some people, by the way, who are watching this, still haven't gotten there.

It was years since that person broke up with them, and they're still telling themselves a story that that person was the right person.

>> That's agonizing.

> Yes, because it's -- you don't get to ever kind of reach the other side of the grief when you tell yourself that.

You're in chronic grief instead of the acute grief of break up, grieving the end of the relationship, grieving the future you thought you'd have, feeling the disappointment of it all and then moving on to create a new and better story.

Instead, you're in the chronic grief of continuing to tell yourself a story that your right person is, they're still out there, they just don't want to be with you anymore.

>> Oh, man.

>> Then there's what you're talking about.

>> And they might be with someone else.

>> And they're with someone else.

And so we we experience that grief a thousand times.

You experience it the moment you realize they're with someone else, you experienced it the moment they propose to that person, you realize -- You experience it again the moment they have a child.

You're like -- you're experiencing the grief over and over and over again.

The kind you're talking about, where you know while you're in it that it's the wrong relationship, I think that the heartbreak there is so much of it relates to the fear and the disappointment of, oh, my God, I'm back on my own again.

And that fear of uprooting our life again, of changing our life.

Well, firstly, if someone has gone as far as marrying a person or you've just been enmeshed with someone for many years, you don't even have to be married.

Your lives could be so intertwined at this point that leaving is like throwing a grenade in your own life.

>> Yeah, friends, family.

Maybe you live together.

Maybe there's, you know, all these other things you've been intertwining.

>> And the identity.

You know, that was my identity, that relationship.

That was my life.

That was my life as I knew it.

It was my life as my community.

The people around me knew it.

So I now have to sort of recreate my life and build from the ground up again, it can feel like for so many people.

Of course, you add marriage into it, and often, there's financial implications, and there's, you know, sometimes there's children.

And there are so many layers of complication, and we may have had this fear gnawing away at us that someone was wrong a long time ago.

But it's hard to be the one that lights the fuse that blows up your own life.

>> Ooh.

>> And it's easier when someone breaks up with us in many ways, because at least we feel like we're on the receiving end.

I didn't have a choice.

But when you're having to -- >> But I'm not good enough, if they broke up with me.

>> Then I have that to deal with.

Like I don't feel good enough, but at least, at least they pulled the trigger.

But to be the one -- You know, it's funny, in boxing a lot of the time, and you know this, when you spar with someone, once you get hit and you get hit hard, it's almost easier to then retaliate.

But it's hard to be the one to throw the first punch.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like, uh, you know, when you're the one breaking up with someone because you know they're wrong, it's hard to be like, if I just kept going with this, it would just continue for another five years.

>> Because they're gonna break up with me.

>> They're not going to break up with me, so it would stay comfortable or it would stay... But if I'm breaking up with them, I'm the one who has to detonate.

I'm the one who has to throw the punch.

And that's the hard part is, we have to, on some level, it can feel like I'm having to blow up my own life for the hope of a better life, which hasn't materialized yet.

So it's terrifying because it's like jumping off a cliff without a parachute.

I don't know if a better life is coming.

I don't know if I'm going to be alone forever and never find anyone again.

Is life going to punish me for letting go of this in the form of never serving me up another great relationship or another relationship period.

You know, am I -- some people, it's, "Am I too old now to find another person?"

Am I going to go out there and find that I'm invisible?

Has my window passed?

Then you throw into it biology.

You know, am I going to meet someone in time to have children?

Because I know I really want to have children.

And is that going to -- am I taking that possibility off the table for me by leaving this relationship?

There's so many layers of complication that the heartbreak is so complex.

It's fear.

It's grief, it's disappointment.

It's the anxiety of your dreams never coming true now as a result of leaving this relationship.

It's all really, really hard.

>> Oh, man.

The quote in your book that you mentioned -- "You have to be willing to light the fuse that blows up your own life."

>> Yeah.

>> And you say if you stay where you are, you will never be happy and you will never be at peace.

And I'm assuming you're speaking around if you're staying in a relationship that is not working or that's not the right fit for you, if you stay where you are, you'll never be happy and you'll never be at peace.

>> And certainly one that's, you know, that's abusive or one that's narcissistic, one where you have believed it's going to change for so long, and there's been no evidence for the fact that the relationship is going to change.

>> Yes.

>> You've tried everything.

You've brought, you know, vulnerability to it.

You've brought standards to it.

You've, you know, changed what you give that person.

You've done so much to try to make this relationship into a great one or a peaceful one, or just one that doesn't harm you.

>> Right.

>> And it never works.

And there's never change.

There is a certain point where you have to say to yourself, how many times -- I think it's a question that's worth us all asking in life is, how many times does something not have to work for me to decide it's not going to work?

And your answer to that question will dictate how much of your life you will, you know, throw into a situation.

bad.

Or my, you know, friends-partner is worse than my partner.

You compare yourself to other relationships, right?

You'll do these things to justify.

And you're like, well, I don't want to be so strict where they have to be perfect because I'm not perfect, but I don't want to be too flexible that I get walked on all the time.

So it's like a dance of figuring out... And it's almost like if you have to say, how many more times am I going to put up with this until I get out?

It's almost like when you say that, that's the time to get out, because you're not going to change the person in front of you.

They're not going to change overnight unless they choose to change.

From my understanding, you can't force them to change.

>> Well, someone has to be -- for change to happen, a lot has to happen.

You know, like change is very, very hard.

We both operate in a space that's predicated on the idea that people can change.

So if we didn't start by believing that, we're in trouble, you and I shouldn't have a job.

>> Yes.

>> So we start from that foundation, that you and I must both believe that people can change.

Otherwise, why make a podcast?

>> Right.

>> But we also then have to get very sober about how hard change is.

>> And what needs to happen in order for someone to want to change.

>> Well, look at what has to happen for us to change even when we want to.

Every year on January 1st, most of the world, whether they articulate it or not, makes some kind of promise to themselves about something they want to do differently.

They call it a resolution, or I'm going to ingrain this new habit, or I'm going to make a change this year, or someone, whether spelling it out or just on some level, feels this I want to do something different.

And if only the wanting it to be different made it different.

It doesn't.

There's still so much -- All our work is ahead of us after that.

And anyone who's ever been to therapy knows that you set foot in the door because you want something to change, right?

You show up because you want something to be different.

And then you get there, and you realize there's an awful lot of self-awareness around what needs to change for it to be different, that you need to gain.

And then past that, you need the discipline to go out there and actually do the uncomfortable thing over and over and over again until it starts to become something that starts to become more natural to you, or at the very least, just something that's you're a little bit less uncomfortable with.

Like, that's how hard it is.

If I've got a habit or something that's hurting me or my life, I might be aware of it.

But now I have to actually do the uncomfortable thing and do something different to what I normally do.

And that takes time and effort and energy.

And even then, I might only change it by 5% or 10%, but that 5% or 10%, luckily, is often enough to set us on a different enough trajectory in our life that we can get new results.

>> Absolutely.

>> And that's a wonderful thing.

We don't go to therapy and get a personality transplant.

>> Right.

>> We might get put on a 5%, 10% different trajectory.

And over time, that creates a very different life.

>> Absolutely.

>> So let's look at that in the context of a relationship with someone who's behaving in a way you're not happy with.

Even if they want to change, which is a big leap in the first place.

Do they want to change?

Or are they just annoyed that you're annoyed?

>> Mm.

>> Are they just frustrated that you're frustrated because that's not the same as them wanting to change.

That's just them wanting you to stop being so frustrated or on their case all the time.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Right?

So that's not them wanting to change.

They're wanting to change is them recognizing that there's something about this in themselves that they don't like, that they want to address, or that they care about you so much that they want to bring you something different.

And that's motivation enough for them to make a change.

Big leap.

Then after that, they've got to learn how to change, and then they've got to have the discipline to go forward and make those changes.

And even if they did all of that, which if someone's having this conversation with me, if someone's having this conversation with me, it normally means that that person's not doing any of those things.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Right?

Because we're still -- we're still struggling so much because our partner isn't saying any of those things.

But even if they were, the changes might be 5% to 10%.

They're not going to be a personality transplant.

And a lot of people who come to me in really unhappy or very toxic, painful, abusive, or narcissistic relationships are in a place where their partner would need a personality transplant for them to be happy.

>> And then they still may not be happy.

I saw this video last week.

I can't remember the exact name of this Instagram account.

I think it's called Stories From Strangers.

And this guy made a video where he had people write in stories about their life regrets, and he read an anonymous note from, like, this little bowl.

And the note said, "I regret getting a nose job for my husband or partner who kept telling me he wanted me to change my nose."

>> Wow.

>> Getting a nose job, and then two weeks later, him breaking up with me.

>> Oh, my God.

>> And regretting changing myself to try to make someone else happy was never going to be happy with me, no matter what changes I made.

>> [ Sighs ] >> And I thought to myself, that is... And now having to look myself in the mirror and be unhappy with who the person I am for those changes.

So my question for you is, if someone is asking you to change in a relationship, in a committed relationship, and you change for them, is that real love?

>> Hm.

>> Doing it for someone else so that they can be happy?

Or is it a lack of self love and saying, actually, that's not something I want to do right now and I want to accept who I am in this moment, my personality or my habits or my mannerisms or whatever it is that they want to change.

And I'm willing to walk away if that doesn't work for you.

>> That's a really difficult question.

>> And I get context and what it is and what the requests are.

I get it.

>> I suppose -- >> But if someone's never happy with you and they want you to change something about you.

I mean, maybe it's for the good.

Like, maybe you're overweight a lot and you getting in shape would actually be healthier and would make things better and you'd have more energy or whatever it might be.

I get it.

But it should be your partner wanting you to make the change.

Or should the person be saying, you know what, I want to keep evolving and growing as a part of my value system in life and in our relationship.

And that's why I'm going to keep growing.

>> Yeah.

if you change for someone else?

>> It's a big question.

Look, I think firstly, people alert us to things that we want -- that we discover we want to change about ourselves all the time.

Right?

How many of the things that we realize about ourself, we realize because of how that habit, that behavior is experienced in relation to other people.

So enough people in your family tell you that there is something, a way that you are that is affecting them and that mirror, you know, assuming they come to you in healthy ways or that they point things out in a loving or compassionate way.

But that mirror is a wake up call for you about a way that you are affecting people, how your behavior is hurting people.

You know, we come, we learn about ourselves in those ways all the time in life.

So to that extent, it's, in some ways, it's a loving thing for someone around you to trust you enough or to trust the relationship enough to feel like they can be honest with you.

>> Give you some feedback, or... >> Yeah, because when I think of the most brittle relationships or what defines a brittle relationship, or one where there is -- that doesn't have that foundation of safety and trust and love, I think of a relationship where people aren't honest with each other about the things they're unhappy about, because they're too afraid that the relationship can't sustain it.

I've been in relationships where I was... I was so busy trying to hold on to someone and worried that I wasn't going to be able to hold on to them... >> Really?

>> ...that I wasn't honest about what I was unhappy with about that person.

>> Because you didn't want to rock the boat.

>> Yeah, I was afraid I was going to be seen as difficult or high maintenance, or that it, you know, it was -- it was going to be one too many things for me to ask that person.

And, you know, I didn't value myself enough in the relationship to be honest with someone about how something was affecting me.

And so I think that it's an act of love for someone to even feel safe enough in a relationship to be able to tell us something like that, that they may wish to be different or that maybe is hurting them.

I think that how we receive that and what we do about that is also an act of love.

Now the question is how fundamental is the thing they're asking us to change, and is it possible for us to change it?

Does it, you know, does it force us to just shift away from who we actually are?

And that gets into all sorts of interesting territory, right?

Because let's say you're a narcissist.

>> You have to change constantly.

>> And someone comes to you and says, like this pathological lying that you're doing is really affecting me, or the fact that you -- >> The gaslighting.

>> Gaslight me, or the fact that you never involve me in any major decisions and that you make every decision unilaterally for our lives or, you know, uh, the fact that you never consider me or I really -- these things need to change.

You know, could that person argue, I wouldn't be loving myself if I made all these changes?

>> Yeah.

Exactly.

>> You know, you could take it to that extreme, and you'd say, well, that's a fine argument for the narcissist to make, is that you are not accepting me for me, this is who I am.

I wouldn't be loving myself if I changed these things for you.

That's fine.

But then you don't... You no longer deserve this person's company.

You know, this person's not -- You're not entitled to this person constantly being abused by you or constantly accepting that their reality is distorted by being with you.

You know, it's not -- They don't have to put up with it.

Them loving them -- If your definition of loving yourself is that you get to stay all of these abusive ways, well, their definition of loving themselves might be to get out of the way of you.

So, you know, I do think that we have to... partly we have to say what kind of person do I need to be in order to attract the kind of person I want to be with?

If I want to be with a very kind and generous person, well, what's the level of kindness or generosity on my part that is necessary for me to be able to keep that company?

And in some ways it could be, I'm only thinking about this in real time, but it could be the wrong question to say, is it loving myself to be this for somebody else?

It might be that I have to go, what kind of love do I want to attract in my life?

Because me loving myself is me giving myself the gift of that kind of love... >> Right.

>> ...but what do I need to be or represent?

What behavior do I need to model in order to attract that kind of love?

That is the kind of love that if I received, it would be an act of love for me to receive.

Do you know what I mean?

>> Yes.

>> I hope I'm not getting too abstract with that, but it's like -- >> No, it makes sense.

Yeah, and I guess it transitions into another thing that we're talking about right now, which is kind of setting a standard for what you want in a relationship and you becoming that standard, as well.

And you hear a lot of women talk about, you know, they've got a list of all the qualities they want in a potential partner, right?

If they're a single woman.

I've got this list, and I know exactly what I want and I want -- Which essentially sounds like a high value man.

They've got to be funny.

They've got to be kind.

They've got to have money.

They've got to be healthy.

All these different things.

And I hear this a lot from women creating a list and wanting high value men.

He can provide, and he's generous, and he's kind, and he loves dogs, or whatever it is.

It's like this standard of a type of a relationship they want from a man.

My question for you around this set of standards and high value in a relationship, this is a two part question.

What would you say are three positive signs that you're on a date with a potential high value person?

And part two of this.

If you feel like they are out of your league or they're more high value than you, what happens if you get in a relationship with someone that you feel like is out of your league?

>> Let me start with the first part.

>> Making it easy for you.

Just throwing layups.

>> I love doing interviews with you, man.

You always have these really interesting like questions.

>> I feel like this is what women specifically need to hear right now, is what you're going to say.

So no pressure.

>> Why is that?

I'm just curious.

>> Because I feel like what I hear a lot of women who are single have this standard.

They have a list.

They have in there mentally, or they have written down in their journal or their diary or whatever it is, they have a list, and they share it with girlfriends, right?

I've seen these lists.

They've told me or whatever it might be.

And I'm like, "Well, you're not 100% of all these things yet."

Maybe you can be.

Maybe you're developing into that.

Great.

But I see you have a standard of what you want.

Awesome.

And I've heard you talk about this before.

Like, make a list of everything you want, then become that list and you'll be able to be a mirror of that standard in a relationship and working on each other, with each other as you grow in a relationship, no one's going to be perfect, but you're going to be developing yourselves over time as part of your standards.

So what is -- what are three positive signs that you are sitting in front of a high value person?

And if you are not ready for that person and you don't feel like you're qualified or you don't have the same level of values that they do, what will happen if you get into a relationship together and you're not ready for it?

>> So I would say it's not for me to decide for anyone else what is their version of a, let's say, a "high value person."

I think what everyone has to do is get really in touch with what is actually going to make them happy in the same way that we live, you know, in a very memetic world, career wise, where Instagram will serve you up all this imagery, all these ideas around what a successful person is.

And if you're someone building a business, you have to be really clear with yourself on what a successful business is to you, because there's going to be someone who's, you know, you follow, who's trying to build an empire, and everything they do is about empire building.

But maybe that's wrong for you.

Like, maybe what you want is enough to live the kind of life that you want to live, to be able to do work that you really enjoy, and then to maintain that.

And that for you, knowing when to stop is going to be crucial to your happiness.

Self love isn't a feeling.

We have to get out of this mindset that loving myself is a feeling I have to feel.

You don't have to love yourself as a feeling.

You don't even have to like yourself to love yourself.

Liking yourself can come later.

Loving yourself starts today with the approach you take to taking care of your human.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

>> If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, LewisHowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of the "School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course, Find Your Greatness is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in the School of Greatness.

This interactive course will guide you through a step by step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to LewisHowes.com/tv.

♪♪ ♪♪